Update: Here’s a great pair of videos comparing Osteen to John Piper – i.e., the “prosperity gospel” vs. the real Gospel.
Since we live near Houston, I get asked now and then what I think of Joel Osteen and Lakewood Church. I sincerely appreciate the diversity of their membership, but I think his doctrine is incorrect and unbalanced. If someone had been in a church that was unbalanced in the other direction (i.e., nothing but Hellfire and brimstone) then perhaps a couple months at Lakewood might balance them out a bit. But no more than that!
We attend Lakewood United Methodist Church so we are sometimes confused with Osteen’s Lakewood Church. We call ourselves the “other Lakewood.” I’m not sure if we steal any of their “business” when people call or not . . . “Are you Lakewood church?” “Uh, yeah . . . “
Humility is generally desirable, but I think he comes across as too humble on shows like Larry King. He seems unwilling to take a stand on anything controversial and almost seems proud of not being well versed in the Bible.
Mainly I wish that Joel would preach the full Gospel with a balance of grace and truth. Whenever I channel surf to his show he is typically giving some decent advice, but it isn’t always scriptural.
We used to go to a church with a similar preacher. Nice guy, but he was so relentless with his “God loves you unconditionally” message that one might never realize that they needed Jesus.
Joel Osteen’s book, Your Best Life Now, may have some useful tips but its title is a give away to the false worldview it portrays. This will be your best life now if you don’t have Christ, but if you want your best life forever, you’ll want to follow the “repent and believe” strategy outlined in the Bible.
Their “Discover the Champion in You” theme is always a little troubling. But when it was coupled with an invitation to their Easter services it couldn’t have been more ironic. A central point of Christianity is that you aren’t a champion (over sin) and you need to discover the champion that is Jesus Christ, who took your punishment upon himself and conquered sin and death for all time.
They do talk about the Bible some, though. I became a Christian while at a lukewarm church, but only because I started reading the Bible for myself. So I pray that Lakewood’s members will get into enough of the Word to really transform them and to know the truth.
Filed under: Christian - misc.
Hmmm…he seems kind of young to be a pastor who has his own church and is getting invited to talk for God on Larry King, etc.
Unless, of course, he uses old photos like that woo-master Deepak Chopra.
hi there Neil!..interesting analysis..I never heard of him so thanks for teaching me something new today!
I am not sure about Joel Osteen talking “for God.”
Neil, isn’t he one of those Word of Faith/ prosperity types? I haven’t read his book, and I confess to something of a mistrust for most “celebrity Christians.”
Yes, he is in the Word of Faith / prosperity movement.
I try not to pre-judge, but I agree that “celebrity Christians” make me nervous. We certainly don’t want to offend deliberately, but if we are too popular then the offense of the Gospel probably isn’t getting through. It reminds me of this passage, especially the part about peddling the word of God for profit:
“2 Corinthians 2:14-17 (NIV) 14 But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ and through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of him. 15 For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. 16 To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life. And who is equal to such a task? 17 Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God. “
I was wondering what people here think of Ron Luce? He certainly seems to qualify as a “celebrity Christian”. I have known a number of kids who went to his “Honor Academy”. All I ever heard from them in their letters wass requests for money, and reports on how much they were fasting (which seemed like an alarming amount).
I’m not familiar with Ron Luce. Anybody know anything else about him? I am always leery of people asking for money.
couldn’t agree more on Joel Osteen. I love those verses too. 2 corinthians seems to deal with these people in several areas.
Balance is key. Something we will probably all be trying to acheive for the rest of life.
I think you make an interesting point about it being good for a few months for someone coming from an opposite backgroung. My story isn’t the exact same. But i have been in a situation where i went somewhere with an over-emphasis for awhile- and in retrospect, it was good for me because i arrived in a more balanced place in the end. It was a season God used, but was not a destination.
You know, i also have to be honest about something. It always interests me that you are methodist b/c many that I have met are not so strong on doctrine as you are. Maybe it is regional? Around here there is incredible flexibility in the methodist churches. In face one of my gay friends was methodist.
Neil:
I have been reading your blog for the past two months and thank you for all of your tireless efforts. In addition to stepping up my daily Bible readings and study, I began working out and eating more sensibly. Since April, I am down 10lbs, but more importantly, incorporating the discipline to my hectic schedule for faith and fitness. Your blog has been a godsend. Through you, I have also discovered the blog of Total Transformation as well as others. Again, I thank you!
To reiterate Mommyzabs point, I was suprised to learn that you are United Methodist. I am a Christian of color; conservative in life and in politics. For the past two to three years I have wrestled with remaining within the United Methodist Church due to what I perceive an emphasis on grace to the extent of ignoring the truth. My viewpoints are counter to my mother and father, nonetheless much love and respect exists in our relationship. My father (stepfather, to be clear as my father passed away when I was 9years old) is a reitired Bishop in the UMC. Above all else, I pray to God to lead me in this matter.
Respectfully,
Joseph
Hi Neil,
I could not agree more with your assessment of Joel Olsteen. I know some people that go to his conferences and think he’s so wonderful. I think his message often times is “God loves you”, “you will be successful” and not enough “Being a Christian sometimes is hard”. I guess I’ve only seen about 2 of his sermons and snickered through most of it. I know alot of rich “do gooders” seem to like him. My sister is one of them. She’s rich and thinks her works will get her to heaven. I think he attracts those types. He also is apart of the whole Word of Faith movement. UGH. My mom shoved that stuff down my throat as a kid. I can’t stand those people. Kenneth Copeland, Jerry Savelle, Hagin, Mac Hammond… notice how they all are wearing an outfit that cost more than my yearly wardrobe does?? They bother me so. My struggling mom who was trying to make ends meet with only one parent and these guys are telling her to give, give, give and she’ll get, get, get. It never happened. We just lost, lost, lost. We lost our house. She lost her husband. She lost her son. So to me, these guys are just as bad, if not worse, than devil worshippers. THey worship the almighty dollar and not God. The entire goal of their “ministry” is to get money, be rich, and be happy. Of course Joel is living his best life now. He is getting rich off of niave people. These people really bug me.
Michelle,
Your experience is just awful. Should the Bible BE literally true, those Word of Faith types should have read Matthew 18:6 “but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. ”
Hey, as a religious friend of mine once said “At least devil worshippers believe God is real. False preachers must not, or they would be too scared to do what they do.”
Hi Neil,
Ouch — I personally try to be careful judging any ministry. Sorry, but I cannot join in on the bashing of Joel Osteen and other Word of Faith Ministers. I think Joel is called to a Ministry of encouragement and see nothing wrong with it. Of course, we can nitpick any ministry, but ministers really are accountable to God and not us. I cannot imagine putting someone down for encouraging people. I think there are plenty of ministries to go around and reach the needs of all people. I would suggest just not listening to someone who doesn’t minister to you personally.
Hey Neil,
I do find you belonging to the other Lakewood funny:)
Excellent analysis! . . . . . . . . . Next Stop Lauderdale
I agree wholeheartedly with you Neil. wytammic, if Joel is called to a ministry of encouragement, then why is he a pastor? And you don’t have to preach a wishy-washy watered-down belief system to be encouraging. I find the ultimate encouragement in the fact that only Jesus saves and there is nothing I can do to make myself better. This is the Gospel message and this is not what Joel Osteen is preaching. I’ve watched him on CNN before with Larry King and heard him talk about his congregation and the fact that he welcomes many different doctrinal viewpoints, and to some extent, even faiths, as members. He was even hesitant to disagree with Muslims.
I know we are to be careful to judge, but I find Joel the most repulsive kind of “preacher” there is. He is all about making people feel good, and I guarantee you he would never preach about hell, even though Jesus spoke on that more than any other topic. The Bible says in 2 Timothy 1:10-12: But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. (KJV)
I don’t think Mr. Osteen demonstrates these things.
You are a Methodist, Neil? Wow… you sure don’t sound like a lot of them I’ve heard.
Hey Wytammic,
While I think we probably agree on most things. I’m careful on agreeing with the Osteen comment. I do try to be careful on actually mentioning pastor’s names on blogs myself… if others bring one up i may join in (like in this case).
For a long time I tried to give Osteen a lot of “benifit of the doubt”. When he started building that church I coudn’t really understand why he needed an arena church… i kept wondering why they couldn’t just plant churches all around the city, even thouse would be large churches… an arena just can make it hard to not have a celebrity spirit. HOwever, shortly after there was katrina and many fled to Housten and I thought… God you knew more than me. It ended up being big enough to hold the people coming in.
However…
Where I lost it most on Osteen was watching interviews (larry king, barbara walters etc.)where he constantly is making it seem like anything goes (no absolute standard) and that there is not just one way to Christ. Before that there were things I definitely did not agree with him on , but it was seeing him in these interviews that I officially developed the opinion that he wasn’t talking about the same Christianity I know.
Hi Lonedrifter,
I’m not really here to defend Joel. I, of all people, have strong opinions and will let them fly when I feel necessary. I didn’t see Joel on Larry King, it might have bothered me if I had, but not enough to judge him or run him down. There are things I disagree with him on, but I disagree with many people. I like Joel, I personally find his messages uplifting and I guess I’ve never really separated the message out that I can be my best even without Jesus? Nope, I just assume that Joel desires for us all to be blessed and successful through Christ and I’m good with that.
Hi MZ,
Your comment wasn’t here (or at least I didn’t see it) when I posted the comment above. So, kind of just apply my comment to lonedrifter.
I really do understand your point. Joel does however, minister to me personally and I am always encouraged when I hear him speak. As I said, I didn’t see the interviews, and they apparently were not so grand. I like Joel. He is nice. On the other hand — I’m not real hot on whatever that guy’s name who has gotten the nickname America’s Pastor . Gosh, his name slips me … Rick something. Anyway, he’s the one that went to Syria shooting his mouth off and had Barrack Obama speak at his church in CA. That irritated the tar out of me. Therefore, if Joel does wind up doing some terrorist nation supporting campaign and allows people who love the murdering of the unborn, such as Obama, speak from his pulpit — well, I will be ticked.
Anyway — not gonna cave on Joel for now. I do appreciate your points.
You’re thinking of Rick Warren… now THAT guy is a flake.
Hi Lonedrifter — let’s just agree on your last comment. I haven’t smiled much today, but that struck me as funny. That, and Neil attending the other Lakewood.
As I stated, I had no appreciation for Rick Warren whatsoever after his little terrorism promotion tour. Ticked me off.
Have a nice day
Hi – thanks for all the comments. Most of what I thought has been said with respect to whether or not to criticize a pastor. I don’t do it lightly. But I do respect where Tammi is coming from.
I did a separate post on the fact that I’m in the Methodist church, so go check it out. Now!
Joseph – glad you found us and hope you come back often. I can relate to the parent issues. Mine grew up in the Great Depression (my Dad was literally in “Grapes of Wrath” Oklahoma) so they are of a liberal political bent. But they are true Bible-believers and great at living out their faith through service (even into their mid/late 70’s). But let’s just say we don’t talk politics much anymore.
Heh…
I was watching Rev. Osteen last week and found his message and delivery uplifting.
I have an interesting background, being a pastor’s son and having 2 brothers who are pastors and two sisters married to ministers or elders, in that I don’t regularly attend a church. I guess I’m the black sheep of the family. I also married a woman who is lapsed of the Roman Church and is somewhat pagan.
I have a feeling some of you are shuddering, but we truly love the Lord and I think that some of my Christian views are difusing with her views. We view it similar to the custom of the Christian kings marrying a girl of the tribes in Old England and kind of like the balance.
It is odd that in my own “faith” I am more concious of the mediating role of Christ as the Savior in my life, even moreso when I attended an Evangelical University with a major in Theology.
I also share a dispassionate view for the name it claim it brand of “corporate Christianity”. Christianity is mostly about demonstrating God’s love by loving our fellow man, and demonstrating the virtues and spiritual growth of “Life in the Son”.
I find some of Joel’s delivery to be perfect at the right time – if you need to unwind from distractions and a hint of God on top soothes your soul – he does that “feel good” marshmallow thing very well.
But, as pointed out, he doesn’t know where the meat and potatoes of ministry is. If I were to pick out a movie depicting the crucifixion, death and waking from the dead of Jesus that described Joel it would be the movie “Godspell”.
It was a goofy student film that touched on the edges but never really said anything. It wasn’t even a “religious” film.
I know the view from the four gospels very well but cartoons and catholic catechism classes never really did it.
Another that would blow Joel’s cover, “Jesus Christ Superstar”, was not bad as I was 17 when it came out and I saw it. It was somewhat realistic yet hokey at the same time though the music was cool.
I don’t know if he could match Mel Gibson’s “The passion of the Christ” without fainting. Some movies tried to touch on that event but Mel went all out and did a WWII Nazi version that was as realistic as we will ever need to see again.
I think he actually came close to what might have taken place because bored soldiers that are trained to kill are edgy and as a cat, given a mouse to play with, will go excessive. Especially if they don’t like the rats they are stuck with.
I don’t know what the common census here was but the outcome of that brutal day is how we came to be Christians.
I had my favorite creepy Televangelist in the tip of my tongue and couldn’t remember his name – Robert Tilton.
Put your hand on the TV with mine. I used to watch that guy just to see how outrageous he could be.
Then Benny Hinn started smacking people in the forehead and they would get up and dance and moonwalk. Great stuff.
I had to watch Jack and Rexella Van Impe a few times to see what they were trying to get across. He had to have an acrobatic cue card man to keep up with his spiel.
Years ago I was channel surfing and thought I had found Tammy Faye Baker again. It turned out to be the pink haired poseur on TBN, the home of many televangelists.
I hope I am not hurting anyone’s feelings. If so I am sorry.
Don’t apologize, Michael. If anyone follows Benny Hinn then they need their feelings hurt so they can come back to reality. I’ll write on the false TV preachers someday. They make my stomach turn when they only talk about money and preach such false doctrines.
Thank you Teresa for your post. I disagree with wytammic and others, but its because of my personal experience, if you will, with these preachers. My mom to this day still gives them money. I also do her bookkeeping for her ministry and see the letters she gets from these blood suckers. I’m sorry, but I can’t condone anything they say. They might be uplifting and “feel good” sugar coating the truth so you will line their pockets with more money, but I ain’t buying something I can get for free–and that is God’s Word.
A side note, a friend of mine went to hear Joel Olsteen speak here in MN a few years ago. They had to pay money and it wasn’t cheap. Am I mistaken or does Billy Graham Conferences let you come for free or do you have to pay to get in?
[...] Fri 4 May 2007 Word of Faith Movement Posted by Michelle under preachers , Word of Faith , Joel Olsteen , false prophets , evangelists , evil , lies , persecution , TV 4Simpsons Blog Lakewood Church / Joel Osteen « [...]
Michelle,
Your in MN? Where? I’m in Eden Prairie (but don’t let that fool you I’m actually a really nice person)
I don’t know a lot about the Billy Graham crusades. I DO know that I reaspect that at least he’s managed to have such a long carreer with no real scandles like “mislaying” money or “mislaying” secretaries…sorry.
Oh my gosh! Look at that horrible typing. Sorry again.
Michelle,
I followed the link to your blog, and see that your church is in Oakdale. We used to live in North St. Paul about 10 years ago. Nice area, very cute neighborhoods. I miss North St. Paul something awful, but my husband’s job was in Hopkins.
You gotta see this YouTube Video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di9-PebV634
Neil, I blogged on your blog and “borrowed” your analysis…
Thanks.
wow lots of new comments up here.
Why not though someonew people are looking to for spiritual edification!
I do agree that though Joel Osteen in my opinion is off in many areas I’m SURE that he preaches sermons here and there that minister and encourage. Heck, If God will talk through a donkey
I didn’t know that rick warren did the syrian thing. i did know about barack though and that made me sick. what do we expect out of california though
benny hinn and others like him- make me so sad. there is much said in the new testement about people like him. I believe in healing and the ‘charasmatic’ gifts. But their abuse of them is disgusting.
I can’t resist weighing in on the “Joel Osteen” discussion. In this video, Joel Osteen states that Jesus rose from the grave so that we could have an abundant life, not a life of “mediocrity.” Funny, I don’t recall that in Scripture. I’ve always been under the misguided notion that Jesus came to be the ultimate sacrifice for sinners. No promises of wealth, health, prosperity, etc. In fact, James and Peter tell us that trials will be a given if we come to Christ. Joel must not have read that part.
mommyzabs,
I had to laugh at the statement “what do we expect out of california though”
For some reason, it made me think of the line from the Bible “What good can come out of Nazareth?”
California, the new Nazareth! LOL
I have good friends in California… trust me, no good comes from California!
just kidding.
Keith,
You have quite a task ahead of you if you are going to depict one of these televangelists even once a week. Go for the folks that have pallets stacked with “prayer letters” next.
A thought I have about Olsteen is his lack of grandiose that some other televangelists employ. Sure he has a 20′ globe spinning behind him in Texas stadium but he has a fluid delivery that doesn’t go into any other than a “feel good” lecture that lulls one to sleep.
I appreciated the items you pointed out and I am afraid of those that think illness is curable by his type of religion.
One thing that came to my mind is written in the scriptures in which Jesus’s disciples ask him more than once why he talks in parables to the crowds.
I have watched Joel a few times since this topic has come up to familiarize myself and realize Joel rarely reads from the bible while he speaks but rather off the top of his head. I see where the inaccuracies fall into place and I wonder if “abundant” means making a living from talking at the several places I saw advertised.
Satan knows the bible better than the Bible Answerman and will use to turn your mind.
When I was little I always wanted to be in California. Things have changed. I can’t imagine paying $800k for a 1,600 sq. ft. house!
After the HP / Compaq merger (HP was headquartered in CA), my wife’s main comment was, “There is no way we’re moving to California.”
I always thought the “Nazareth” line was funny – sort of a first century diss about one person’s alma mater to another.
I don’t know enough about him to make a judgment one way or another but I think you make some good points here. The only thing I’ve noticed that has concerned me is he seems to be very “up” all the time to the point of it appearing very fake to me. Bill O’Reilly was interviewing him once and he basically tried to say that he was always happy. Thats not realistic and not helpful to all of us normal people who have our good and our bad days. I am a big believer in erring on the side of optimism but not at the sacrifice of being real.
After seeing some “celebrity Christians” and the paths they’ve gone down they make me a little nervous as well. Rick Warren has done numerous things recently that have sent up some major red flags. There are some exceptions like Dr. Dobson but I think they aren’t as common as they should be.
I guess we can all still be friends — though I am not in agreement with the Word of Faith movement bashing at all.
My family firmly believes that without faith it is impossible to please God. Most that people refer to as bad and false prophets, I enjoy and have been blessed by. I’ve never heard them ask for my last dime, and I’m ALWAYS blessed when I give.
Just saying these things because we are Holy Spirit filled believers without an ounce of shame from it.
And Neil, I’m just saying, the Methodist in you is really beginning to stand out to me
Of course, it isn’t a problem. We will have to be happy being on different pages.
As for has anyone heard of Ron Luce — well yes, we consider him to be a personal friend and our daughter has gone on two short term mission trips with his Teen Mania organization. As for the the Honor Academy, it is a great program. I’ve known one young man exceptionally well who graduated from there.
Ron Luce’s ministry puts on youth conferences all around the nation called Acquire the Fire. We’ve been to at least 10 of them and they are a blast.
Okay, that’s enough for now
Hi Tammi – thanks for the background. I have heard of Acquire the Fire before. And yes, of course, we’re all still friends!
Hi Neil,
I’m glad we’re still friends
I just couldn’t sit idly by while my particular brand of faith is mocked. We all have ministers we like and those we don’t. There are some in the Word of Faith movement that I’m not crazy about, but my family has been incredibly blessed by the message of Salvation, which does include more than just redeeming us from our sins. God is a big God, and we believe he is the same yesterday, today, and forever. We reject the notion that the gifts of the Spirit ended with the Apostles of Acts.
Also, it gets a little old when Word of Faith Christians are assumed to be less intelligent that regular denominational Christians. Not trying to brag here (okay, maybe I am) but my husband and I raised a child intelligent enough to get accepted into an Ivy League University.
I do my best not to criticize denominations, though I find them boring and uninspiring. I figure if they preach redemption through the blood of Jesus (and many no longer do so) then we are all part of the body of Christ.
Sometimes I think you all just get jealous when you cannot figure out the speaking in tongues business
My handwriting is so bad that my wife says I “write in tongues.” Does that count?!
I do try to avoid denomination bashing. Much of my complaining is about the Methodist church. I try to parse it to the core beliefs themselves because most denominations have a mix of sound and false teachings going on.
I think you might be writing in tongues Neil
Sometimes I think my husband types in tongues
HAHAHA. I loved these last few comments. Tammmi- I speak in tongues and grew up being taught it was evil
But i never really believed that. I do not believe the”gifts of the spirti” ceased with the cannonization of scripture. But I also have many friends that no nothing of that stuff…. and know their Love of Jesus is 100% true. I think you and I probably agree a lot on this stuff. I don’t like how some brances of pentacostalim reject that people are saved if they do not speak in a ‘tongue of angels’.
ON word of faith… i believe there there are grounds for it… and have seen it to be true when done in pure motives with acknowledgement that it is God who decides what ultimately happens. But I do agree that many who are “famous” for the movement scare me when I see it tend to turn into a method of celebrity and money-making. It’s a dangerous area.
All that said, I really appreciate all of you so much. As I just commented again on the Alcohal blog, I have been ministered to over and over by you all even if you don’t know it
And it is so nice to have this thing called the internet to meet such wonderful people through.
Also, I dream in tongues
Sleep-talk i mean. Isn’t that halariuos. I did it ever since I was little. Now someone can’t tell me that doesn’t exist since I did it when un-aware. I truely believe it was the spirit intercession in my sleep. But who knows.
Neil…. you have single-handedly made me even more aware to never stereo-type or make assumptions based on denominations as you have shattered my little box i put methodists in. Thank you.
MZ – thanks, I share your sentiments. It is great to have people who can discuss an issue and disagree politely while still being focused on Christ.
Tammi – feel free to brag on your Ivy League daughter – she is quite the clear thinking Christian!
MZ,
I was approached by a group of youths at my grocery store that invited me to their church. I told them I too, am a Christian but, I claim no “religion”.
They asked me if I spoke in tongues and told them honestly, “no”. They told me that I could not believe in Jesus unless I did so. I wanted to protest this and lucky for me, an adult supervisor came to my rescue and pointed out the truth in it.
Since I have admittedly never heard or done so, and I have been around people that would do so – What is talking in tongues? I have found this great wealth of information as well as other that wish to seek the face of God – maybe I can get a good explanation here.
I can type in tongues – honest – I put my hands on the keyboard one key over and type whole paragraphs, WOW!
m
During my 50 years of life I have never heard anyone do such. unless I had no idea they were doing so. I will witness and minister as I feel calling to do so but it is all legible to me and no other has asked me of what I said unless it was through blubbering tears on my behalf. Oh, yes. I can be moved to that point and any man of faith that says he doesn’t isn’t listening to God with both ears.
You know I am not a christian woman. I believe in God and love God and I try my best to do what He expects from me. I really do!! I think I would prefer not having brothers/ sisters through Christ that are a bunch of jealous punks. I listen to Joel Osteen as Benny Hinn as everyone else. But you know I do not base my faith in what they say exactly but in what I have read in the bible. Which is the living word. I think it is pittiful and just plain sad to see the divison of the church well, the body of Christ. Just because we feel we are better christians than anyone else. Because we preach better than the next. Messed up!!! Because I know God can use anyone that seeks Him and not sit there and judge the other. SAD!!! Sit and examine yourself and you pittiful faith. If you think Lakewood and Joel Osteen are like so unworthy of God’s love and forgiveness you are totally wrong. Let God judge him and the people that follow him or whatever. Instead of you making a pittiful topic like this you should talk about something that is going to help other grow and not fall to see the faults of other. Like you are!!! I guess you are going to enjoy your time in hell. When satan ask you what are you in for. You can say for trying to worry and fix others and bring other people down here with me and not worrying about my pittiful self. I love Lakewood not everyone in Lakewood or other perfect churches are going to heaven if they do not seek God. My advice to you and others find something else to do. Like bring the lost spirits to GOD or you will be joining them in hell.
Bye.
Hi Maria,
You said you weren’t a Christian woman, but I don’t “know” that. You seem to be confusing behavior with belief.
Joel Osteen preaches many errors and is very unbalanced at best.
Benny Hinn is a fake healer and has spoken many false prophecies.
Sound doctrine is very important to Christ and the church.
Just because some of us try to expose false teachers doesn’t mean we aren’t also helping others in many ways.
I encourage you to gain a better understanding of the doctrine of salvation. We are saved by God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ. That’s it. Even if I was wrong to explaining why Benny Hinn is not a good teacher that wouldn’t condemn me to Hell.
Peace,
Neil
These blogs makes me laugh! Everyone has the right to their own opinion and this is what makes our world so diversified. My opinion: Joel is brilliant, he’s down to earth, he’s here at our level! At a time when the world is so uncertain he makes me want to believe in a better tomorrow. I cannot stand when some preacher stands and reads the bible, I can do that on my own. Joel Osteen is real, so he’s young, big deal good for him. He reaches people…
And for the church that wishes they were Lakewood, your petty and jealous. I worked for Sacred Heart Church in Atlanta, (Catholic) and people would call for the Methodist church across the street and I did the Christian thing by giving them the correct information. I am a Catholic through and through, but God Bless Joel Osteen, Victoria and his family, his ministry and for the people like me who think he’s brilliant!
We all fit in this world……if little minded people don’t like to watch him, TURN THE CHANNEL!
Marisol,
The pastor’s roll IS to proclaim the word of God. Not make people feel good about themselves. Joel is not being true to his calling. Sure, if he wants to continue to do what he does, he can. But for him to be honest at it, quit calling himself a pastor, the place where they meet, a church… and call it what it is: group therapy.
I can not believe the people who call themselves Christians and the say negative words about others. Joel Osteen began pastoring after the death of his father, and if the church grew because of him then PRAISE GOD. He brought my husband to the lord. We don’t always need to hear how bad we are, believe me everyone knows it already. He tells us God is LOVE and God LOVES us. The bible does say God wants wealth for us, God only wants good for us. I have had things happen that by having faith is the only reason they have happened. Circumstances that could only be God. Things I anticipated small turned big because of my faith in God. The bible says if you have faith and tell the mountain to throw itself into the ocean and BELIEVE then it will happen. So NO ONE should judge what someone else does. If Joel brings one person to God then that is wonderful and if you who say these things against him turn one person away from God then YOU will be judged for that. Thank you Joel for helping to lift my spirits towards my God. I know God does want good things for me, that is why he made earth and his people why wuld he want bad for us? If we believe and trust in God,do what is right, and if Joel helps someone along the way, then who is any of you to bad mouth him? We are so quick to judge without even knowing this man as a person. God forgive us all and help us to leave the judging to you…..
“I can not believe the people who call themselves Christians and the say negative words about others. . . . So NO ONE should judge what someone else does.”
Penney, do you realize how we might view your comments as somewhat ironic?
Yes, God is love but He is not just love. He is also perfect justice. Countless people say they aren’t sinners and don’t need a Savior.
Penney,
I’m not sure if you meant to say it like this, but I picked up on something you said in your last comment. You said, “Joel Osteen began pastoring after the death of his father, and if the church grew because of him then PRAISE GOD.” [emphasis mine].
Did Lakewood grow because of Joel Osteen? Or was it because of the Holy Spirit? Even the apostle Paul said that at Corinth, “I planted, Apollos watered, but GOD gave the increase.”
I have no doubt that attendance at Lakewood grew because of Joel Osteen. And I’m sure that many people have come to feel better about themselves because of him. But how many have sat and listened to him and have never repented from their sins because they were never told they had to? Don’t get me wrong, there may be some who came to Christ because of Osteen’s preaching. But how many have come short of salvation because he did not declare the whole counsel of God?
“The bible does say God wants wealth for us, God only wants good for us.” Yep, you’re right. That’s why the apostle Paul lived in such an extravagent mansion. Peter lived to be 100 years old. The apostle John lived in luxury all his life. All those Christians in Rome in the first 2 Centuries AD were treated with the utmost care, dignity and respect. And right now, Christians in China, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan are considered by their government to be shining examples of what they want their citizens to be.
Am I right?
Because according to your thinking, that’s how it is supposed to be. Go ahead. Go and take a copy of “Your Best Life Now!” or “Become a Better You!” to the Christians who are starving in prisons around the world for the name of Christ. I dare you. Order a copy of “Voice of the Martyrs” and see the conditions that many Christians around the world are living in. “Remember the prisoners, as if chained with them” (Hebrews 13:3).
If I recall correctly, Jesus said, “bless those who spitefully use you.” Does that sound lile the world is going to lavish its praise on you? No, it doesn’t. It means that when the world hates you, when the world deprives you of your quote-unquote “rights” that you are to live with it.
Read Hebrews 11:35-38, and see what kind of people “the world was not worthy of.” Ask yourself how much wealth those people had.
PS–Neil, you’ve been tagged!.
Penney, I’ve never listened to Pastor Osteen, never read one of his books. I won’t say anything bad about him as I don’t know him. If you don’t mind, though, I’d like to make a couple of comments about your comment.
First, I agree, if anyone has come to Christ because of Osteen’s work, praise God. But I would also say the same thing about anyone. For example, my step-son spent some time in Afghanistan and saw some soldiers come to Christ because of the work of Osama bin Laden. Praise God for that, but I really wish Osama hadn’t done what he did.
I don’t mean to compare Osteen to Osteen, there works are very different. But I do mean to say we have to be careful how we judge a person.
You also said “The Bible does say God wants wealth for us” – can you explain where you see that? I think that God wants wealth for some, but others he plans poverty. Why would He do that? So God’s glory can be shown. Personally, I think He knows that if I had wealth, I wouldn’t depend on Him as much (but a little bit more wouldn’t hurt).
Praise God that your husband found the Lord through Osteen’s ministry. Continue seeking His will in your lives. Carefully examine His word (all of His word) and be like the people of Berea who searched every day to see if what Paul and Silas told them were true. (Acts 17:11)
I truly understand that everyone has their own opinion. But I do not think we have to be careful as HOW we judge people we have to be careful NOT to judge people. God did say those without sin cast the first stone. I am just saying if people don’t like what he says then they just need to not listen and stop trying to bring him or anyone else down. I may listen to him but I also read my bible and I know the other side of what it says. But if what Joel says helps people then really what is it to you or me to bad mouth him? Who knows if this wasn’t Gods calling for him. Who are we to say? Everyone just needs to stop complaining believe in God, trust in God, do right by God and leave the judgement to GOD. I guess I just don’t get it. If I don’t like what someone says on TV I turn the channel, if I don’t like a book, I don’t read it. It is not up to me to say who is right and who is wrong. If I feel God is going to Bless me then what is wrong with that. If that is what keeps people’s faith then we should thank God. I am not here to argue about this just wanted to express my feelings about all the judging done to someone. We don’t know his heart or anyone else’s for that matter. Every pastor is human on TV or our home church, they will make mistakes so people need to understand and pray to God not say mean hurtful things to the world. Let’s just left God be the judge and we take care of our lives and do right. Not everyone is going to agree with each other. My feelings (wrong or right) is that God didn’t say some of you will find wealth (and I don’t just mean money) he means you all can. I can’t speak for anyone but myself but why should anyone tell me I am wrong for how I feel. As long as I live my live for God, do what is right and pleasing unto him, then why does that give anyone the right to criticize me? It doesn’t matter what religion you are and who is to say which is right, as long as you believe, live right, love God with all your heart and YES ask for forgiveness because we all need that everyday. So to all of you..
GOD BLESS and BE WITH YOU
Penney,
Would you be so kind as to give an answer to my examples of Paul, Peter, John, etc in response to your “God wants us to be rich” statement? I for one would like to know how you still believe that, considering the plight of so many Christians worldwide.
Because here’s the problem–If I feel God is going to Bless me then what is wrong with that. If that is what keeps people’s faith then we should thank God. How many people have bought into that lie, perpetuated by people like Copeland, Duplantis, Marilyn Hickey–speakers that Joel Osteen has had speak in his church–how many people have bought into that lie, sent these charlatans their money, and helped to perpetuate these frauds? By the same token, how many people have bought into that lie, hels it for a while–then when their “blessing” didn’t come, they turned their back on God and cursed Him?
Does Joel Osteen have a gift–I would dare say he does. He seems to have the gift of encouragement. That said, he does not have–and he has admitted as much on Larry King–he does not have the two gifts a preacher needs to have (namely, prophecy and teaching). Titus 1:9 says a preacher must “[hold] fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.” If a man cannot refute those who twist and distort God’s word, then he should not be in a pulpit. I’m not trying to be critical, I’m just being true to the Word. Because that’s what it says, take it or leave it.
god does not promise wealth to everyone. If He did, then Jesus would not have warned us to not store up treasures on earth (Matthew 6:19-21).
Fourpointer..
you sure do seem to be one to judge.
Psalms 37:4-5, Proverbs 10:22, Proverbs 16:3, Mark 11:22-25. Maybe read Matthew 7:1, Romans 15:7, Proverbs 3:30. If you would have read my blog I also said I do not feel it is all money. Wealth can mean alot of things. I have not once heard Joel ask for money. People can send money or give to other churches but that doesn’t mean that pastor isn’t trying to do what you say Joel is. Some big time pastors who have went to bible college have gotten money from people for their own riches. So all I am saying is WHY DO YOU JUDGE. If Joel is doing something wrong then WHY not leave it to GOD???? God is a loving God he loves me that’s what I need to know. I am not a perfect person but then who is? I myself have had to learn to not judge people and talk about people because first and foremost that is what God says. So as you sit here and preach to me I see you doing exactly what the bible says not to do….
Hi Penney,
I’m not sure you see the irony in judging us for judging. Do you not realize you are making judgments?
“Maybe read Matthew 7:1″
I suggest reading Matthew 7:1-5, since the full passage reveals what Jesus was teaching: It is ok to judge, provided we don’t do so hypocritically.
Matthew 7:1-5 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
He also said in John 7:24, “Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment.”
Peace,
Neil
Neil
Well I guess that would depend on how you or someone sees your judging. Maybe I see you being hyprocitical and maybe I see that you need to remove the plank from your eye. And no I do not think I am judging. Whom have I judge. You have the right to believe how you believe just as I do. I have not said that what you think or feel is wrong or right. ALL I have said through this whole ordeal is for people to leave other people alone and live, teach, what they feel is right and stop condemning others. I am just saying I don’t understand how other Godly leaders (if you call it that) can talk about someone who in alot of eyes is teaching about God. I have heard alot of people say that churches only want to condemn people and that makes them not want to go to church. The bible has alot of good things to say about people not just the harsh. We as people can only go by how we feel and I know that when I watch Joel I can feel the power of God with me. I know the way to heaven but if he also can lift me then what is wrong with that and who on earth has the right to say any different. You feel how you feel and good for you, but I feel how I feel and I don’t like being told that my way is not right because it is not right with you. Only God knows my heart and above all that is all that matters. I have went to church all my life as a pentecostal, I am not ignorant to what God wants from me, but besides always hearing the harsh part of the bible it is nice to also hear the soft part of the bible. All I know is MY GOD is a loving,forgiving and kind God. I guess that is all I need to know.
Penney,
For one thing, I can’t “read your blog” if I don’t have a URL. So, what do you mean by “wealth?” What do you mean when you say, “The bible does say God wants wealth for us, God only wants good for us.” If I am misunderstanding what you are saying, then please correct me and show me what you mean.
And by the way, I’m not judging a PERSON, I’m judging what they teach. And lest you think that’s unbiblical:
2nd Timothy 4:2-3–Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.
2nd Timothy 3:16–All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
Titus 2:15–Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.
And as I said earlier, Titus 1:9 says a preacher must “[hold] fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.”
Now, with all these exhortations to “rebuke,” doesn’t it stand to reason that there may be something we need to rebuke a person for? But here’s the thing: I’m not rebuking Joel Osteen. I’m simply saying that as a man who calls himself a pastor, and as one who stands in a pulpit, he is charged by the word of God to preach the whole counsel of God. And that includes the tough things.
And I am also trying to get some straight answers from you. But what I am sensing from you is an attempt to shift the focus from the simple questions I have asked you by trying to make it sound as if I am “judging” somebody. I’m simply laying out what the Bible says. So please, by all means–correct me.
Penney, you are the one being hypocritical here. You insist that we should never make judgments, but you have to redefine the word itself to claim that you aren’t judging as well.
Yes, God is loving, forgiving and kind but He is also a God of judgment and wrath. And his word teaches us to correct false teachers. We are obeying him in doing so.
No one is denying that there aren’t positive message in the Bible, but Joel never teaches the ultimate positive message: Each of us is a sinner with a default destination of Hell. It is only by God’s grace that He offered a sacrifice on our behalf so that we could be reconciled to him. That’s the Good News.
ok this will be my last word because this could go on forever….Who is to say Joel is a false teacher? What has he said that is false? Because he doesn’t preach your way? You believe in what you believe and I the same. I wish you both only good and prosperity. May God always bless you. And remember not everyone sees everything the same. I may read a scripture totally different then the way you do and who is to say I am wrong and you are right?
Peace with you my brothers.\
Aloha
Yes, my last word as well, since you cannot answer a simple question. On the one hand you want to say that I am wrong, but on the other hand can’t show me how. I guess that means you can’t, so–so be it.
I never said Joel was a flase teacher–those are your own words that you have put into my mouth.
Good day, and goodbye.
Penney, I hope you don’t leave, but instead continue to seek the Truth. Actually, I hope other Christians DO judge me. Many times I have done something I thought was right, only to have it pointed out to me that I was wrong. Searching the scriptures showed I was wrong.
The difference here is that you seem willing to let any pastor say anything and let them be accountable only to God.
I make a promise to any pastor I know, that I will search the scriptures to see if what they say is true. I’ve told Neil that before and once or twice called him on it. Neil never said he was perfect.
Fourpointer, Penney may have suggested you read her blog, but what she meant was her previous comment August 19th,2008 at 11:05am. She said “God didn’t say some of you will find wealth (and I don’t just mean money) he means you all can”. I think you owe her an apology.
I also think you’re not displaying much compassion and creating animosity. Correction should be given with love, not with anger.
In reality, I agree with that comment. If you accept that “wealth” means more than just money, I believe God wants us to be “wealthy”. Maybe not in this life, but in eternity.
Randy,
Not to sound cold or anything, but I do not feel I owe her an apology. I did not say anything hurtful or rash to her. All I did was simply ask for clarification. I asked her simple, direct questions that she never answered. I even offered her the chance to correct me herself–something she did not do. If she meant by “her blog” her previous comment, then she should have said so. I also pointed out to her passages of Scripture that refure the prosperity doctrine of the “health and wealth gospel.” If pointing to the Scriptures is something we need to apologize for, then we owe every lost pwerson we have ever shared the gospel with an apology.
Will we be blessed when we get to Heaven? Of course we will. But that is not–that is NOT–what the prosperity preachers are preaching (And no, I am not including Joel Osteen in that group, although he has invited them to speak at his church on more than one occasion). They are teaching that “God wants us to be wealthy in this life,” and if you don’t think they mean material gain, then you need to listen to them again. If you want, I can give you a gross litany of quotes from such heretics (Creflo, Duplantis, Copeland, Avanzini, Hinn. And no, I will not back down from calling them heretics. That’s one shoe that fits.)
hi
i was wondering if you can give me sth vey important.
i need joel osteen’s speech on chuch chanel on december 8, 2007 at lakewood church.
i searched a lot but i could find nothing.
please help me.
thank you.