Regarding abortion, we all have to draw a line somewhere and defend why on one side it is a Constitutional right (ha) to kill “it” and on the other side it is the murder of an innocent human being.
The burden of proof is on the one who draws the line anywhere to the right of conception, because at that point a unique human being has been created. What is the rationale for one side being murder and the other side being an optional surgical procedure?
For those who defend the morality of Partial Birth Abortion, what was significant about 10% of the baby still being in the mother? Why not say that as long as the umbilical cord is attached that she (the baby) can be killed?
What if you pick 6 months as the line? How can you be sure that is the magic amount of time? How can you be sure you know exactly how old the unborn child is?
If you pick “viability,” how do you know what is viable for each child? If viability depends on the child, the availability of health care in the area and the ability to afford that health care, then the line could be all over the place. That is another hint that you are drawing the line in wrong place.
The line itself is very narrow and the consequences on each side couldn’t be more different. If you can’t draw a line with confidence then you should always err on the side of life.
I draw it at conception.
Same here.
I draw the line at conception. Once conceived, that’s a beautiful little human being
I remember the time when the Leftist pro abortion crowd hung there hat on the “viability” issue, but have long sense departed from the compartively conservative abortion position. Whenever you make a moral decision or take a moral action you must take the most morally conservative path unless you can prove otherwise. Yes Neil, the burden of proof is on those that would take the life of the baby…….Next Stop Lauderdale
I think it’s a human at conception (or rather, know so as scientific fact), but, from a legal standpoint, I would feel significantly less squeamish about hard-core anti-abortion legislation if it allowed for a week or two beyond conception.
Simply put, from a biological standpoint, about 80% of pregnancies end within that time. I don’t want women being prosecuted for something beyond their control; I don’t want women being forced to submit to all sorts of invasive procedures to gather “evidence” as to whether or not there was an abortion, and I don’t want restrictions on all women of childbearing age, simply because they could be pregnant.
It would be a really scary society that allows, for example, a policeman to arrest all women who are in a bar, because they could be pregnant and not know it, and they could be harming their fetus or causing an abortion. Fifth Amendment jurisprudence has (devolved?) evolved to the point where such searches could be allowed.
I fully agree that the law can be circumvented, but I don’t worry about it too much – after all, so few OB-GYNs these days perform abortions. Just ask the Left: they complain that women don’t have access to abortionists.
Ultimately, we need a law that would protect children and women – one that does not pit them against each other, as the current law does.
More than that, many things are currently legal that are, IMO, more appalling than things that such a law would outlaw. Consider three people: one woman who undergoes IVF and deliberately creates more embryos than she wants; a woman who uses the Pill to prevent pregnancy, which may have the side effect of preventing implantation in rare cases; and a woman who is raped and uses Plan B. One acts deliberately (to create and destroy human life); one is acting somewhat recklessly (knowing that she could conceive but the child would never implant); and one is acting responsibly and never had the intention of creating a child, nor acted affirmatively in any one act. My HUGE issue is that legislation would most inhibit the woman whom we feel the most sorry for – the one who did not have the option of creating human life. To me, that’s just irrational.
….hoping for some blog disagreement or some other ways to get around these problems….
Never mind that Plan B has about as much chance of preventing implantation (a rare side effect) as breastfeeding does.
Are women to say that breastfeeding mothers should not have sex because the hormones released for milk production might cause an “abortion?”
Rediculous
Teresa,
That is one of two recognised mechanisms for Plan B. It would not be as effetual (92% if taken within 24 hours) if it only prevented ovulation.
I thought that breast feeding suppressed ovulation. What changes does it cause to the uterine lining?
well for 1, neil I gree with you on that line.
To address briget for clarification…
first one or 2 weeks of conception- (i’m assuming we are talking about when the sperm goes into the egg) women don’t know they are pregnant. So abortion would not even be possible at this point. correct?
Plan B and morning after pill- are they the same, this one has confused me for awhile.
I also think that just because many woman miscarry in those weeks and never know it doesn’t make it not a human being… but i do not think it is the woman’s fault and she can’t be held accountable for things she did not knowing she was pregnant. With both of my children I did things I would not do pregnant when I was in the first 2 weeks. Thank God they are healthy
I still believe that life is at conception. We just don’t have control of that life.
Birth control- hard one. I personally have taken it but no longer do. For many reasons even aside from the human life debate. But I do have an unsettledness with the idea of increasing my chances to have concieved (through breakthrough ovulation) and causing the egg not to implant that maybe would have implanted without birthcontrol. I think that is something people need to figure out for themselves though. I just don’t have peace with it.
Yes, MommyZabs, I would be referring to a time at which women would not know that they are pregnant. The practical result is that abortion would be impossible. The other practical result is that the government couldn’t start harassing women about drinking, running marathons, not getting enough folic acid, or any other thing they may inadvertently do that could cause a spontaneous abortion.
Last year, Discovery magazine published an article about how the woman’s health during the three months prior to pregnancy influences whether or not she’ll have a healthy fetus (or will spontaneously abort), because that is the time during which the ovum ripens. Taking that plus hard-core anti-abortion legislation, you could really start making women’s lives miserable – you know, saying that they can’t do x, y, or z because it could cause them to inadvertently abort three months from now.
Re: birth control.
I just don’t think that most of it is good for women’s bodies. I had abdominal pain and they put me on the Pill to try to diagnose it (and, let’s not forget, because even abstinent young ladies should be on the Pill – eye roll!). The depression was akin to what I felt when my dog died. Anyone who thinks that we can put all those hormones into our bodies with side effects is probably high on something.
On a side note, I’ve heard that Natural Family Planning is as effective as the Pill (if you use the advanced, technology-filled method). If Hell freezes over and I get married, that would probably be my first choice. As a health nut, I hate the idea of working against my body and suppressing its natural function – I would much prefer to know how it works and schedule my life accordingly.
Bridget, thanks for the clarification. I would be super interested in that article just to be informed. Do you have a link? I agree that govt should not be involved in those things (saying a woman can’t drink, smoke, run a marathon, take advil, sleep on their back, eat inpasturized cheeze… etc. when a woman doesn’t even know they are pregnant, let alone when they are pregnant, is not the gov’t job).
As far as birth control.
When I was 18 my dad forced me to go to and OBGYN despite the fact i was not sexually active and a virgin because my mom made him promise he would when I was of age. The Dr. talked me into going onto birth control for cramps, I protested her a couple times then gave in to the idea. It was awful. So when I got married I went on a light birth control pill, started throwing up all the time, so they put me on the patch, still threw up, i took it off and got better. So I for one don’t think my body like it.
NFP- i actually just found out that couples that have graduated this class and practice it have a divorce rate of 10% (90% never divorce). Wish i had a link to that stat as I don’ tknow how reliable it is. At any rate, the thinking process is that it fosters incredible communication between husband and wife to make it work. You go into it with both being involved and responsible for your reproductive decisions. I think the idea of that is really cool and am considering taking a class.
Found it!
http://discovermagazine.com/2004/may/cover/article_view?b_start:int=1&-C=
“Nonetheless, it has become increasingly clear that the fate of an embryo may be cast in the ovarian follicles, where egg cells are built. “Much of the developmental biology and ability of the human embryo is determined even before it’s fertilized,” Van Blerkom said. “This all happens by the one-cell stage, which is when the fate of the embryo is determined.””
Re: NFP. That’s a neat statistic.
We have tried several forms of B/C. All were terrible, two of them gave my wife panic attacks. The attacks were so bad that she would start crying randomly and hyperventilating. It was rough. At this point we have given up.
TT That is so sad it did that to your wife. I know what panic attacks are like and that is no fun. Most of my friends did horrible in one form or another on BC, in fact I can only name 3 that it worked out okay for.
Theobromophile,
Breastfeeding supresses ovulation, and can cause an extention in the luteal phase. This is similar to the effects of Plan B which supresses ovulation and can cause an extension in the luteal phase.
From what I understand, the failure for implantation is about the same likelyhood in each case. Plan B is more effective at suppressing ovulation than breatfeeding, but no more likely to affect implantation.
Oh dare I voice in. You know I really “love” you guys, so please don’t hate me too much for my opinion.
After a lot of thought, I believe that a fetus becomes a human being when they are born and have breathed – “the breath of life”. This has lead me to some hard and uncomfortable choices as I do respect life, greatly. My rationale is also effected by personal experience of going through two miscarriages during my marriage. While I was saddened, I can’t say that I believe that the unborn child was truly a person, nor do I feel it is in heaven waiting for me. We didn’t have a funeral, we didn’t do anything other than be a bit saddened when the d/c was performed, and candidly, the emotion was one of stoic pragmatism, which was based on the idea that if the baby hadn’t gone to term, there was probably something fearfully wrong with it. I still don’t believe that I have “seven” children. Two of them were concepts, but not reality.
It is funny how people effect each other, my wife is or was radically “pro-choice”, but she’s from the “People’s Republic of Massachusetts” so what can one expect. However, the recent improvements in medicine have made her question some of her views regarding abortion. On the other hand, our own candid discussions of birth control and abortion when we had a very scary two or three weeks – when she thought she was pregnant. Ironicially, I who am much more closer to the pro-life camp than she, metioned an IUD as an option, but she wouldn’t do so on her belief that it would be too close to an abortion for her to be comfortable. While I’ve known for years how an IUD works, I never had a real moral issue with it, but understand there are those who do.
With regard to birth control, happily she is entering change of life, so while we are “very” thorough in exercising care, we look forward to more spontanaeity. We really do not want nor would welcome a baby into our lives at this point – other than grandchildren. It is a very real fear we have.
VOR.
In regards to my opinion on birth control. I don’t have a problem with people using it. I think that it can have negative effects on a lot of people… and I have a hard time with the concept of using it since I learned for the first time a couple years ago that breakthrough ovulation was possible and BC could possibly cause the egg to not implant. But this is a very unknown thing… so if it is not bad on someone’s concience I don’t think them bad for using it.
You already know how I feel on the abortion stuff. I guess we’ll find out when we get to heaven.
“I draw the line at conception. Once conceived, that’s a beautiful little human being”
I agree – regarding birth control – (aka “the pill” and other hormonal supplements, and especially the IUD) it is abortion – it doesn’t allow the fertilized egg to implant itself, because of the thinning of the walls, as well as other things – do your research. I did B.C. for 10 years not even knowing what I was doing to my body, as well as my babies. Who knows how many I have in Heaven
The doctors of course will never tell you this though, because they are trained not to.
P.S. I forgot to add a little bit of my “two cents” worth.
If we are Christians, we should love what God loves and hate what God hates, right? Well, since He is the giver of life, the creator of life, and the sustainer of life, why is it that women are trying so hard to snuff out the “life” God wants to bring into our families? As if we can say to God “Well, God, 2 is enough for me, thanks – you can keep the rest of your “blessings”, after all, I’VE got things to do with my life other than raising kids!” Yep, a sure sign of modern “feminism”, as well as selfishness.
We want to control our wombs. We want to be “lord” over our wombs and make decisions AGAINST allowing God to give us more children to raise up for His glory and honor. Shame on us!
As the old saying goes, “He’s either Lord of all, or He’s not Lord at all!”
Hmmm…is He Lord over this area in your life? Or are you seated on that particular throne? Something to consider….
(don’t be too quick to throw stones at me ladies (or gents)….Scripture is what we live by, isn’t it? Well then, what was God’s first commandment recorded in the Bible? I’ll give you a hint….it is in Genesis, and it starts with, “Be f-r-u-i-t-f-u-l and………” *grins*
God also gave us dominion over all the earth.
Last time I heard, our wombs were on earth.
Hi all – lots of great dialogue, thanks. I was out of pocket most of the day (actually doing my job!) and couldn’t dive in.
Voice – I certainly don’t hate you for you view, but I don’t understand it. My wife had 5 miscarriages. People will deal with those in different ways. Is it harder to lose a toddler than a 10 wk. fetus? Yes, but I think you are making a logical misstep with how you apply that fact: You are determining the value of the human being in question based on how you feel about her.
Why would that stop after birth? There is nothing magical about a short trip down the birth canal that transforms the baby into something different.
Teresa, you are kidding about the wombs and dominion, right? I assumed you were, but believe it or not some apostate Methodist Bishops once posited that abortion is an exercise of free will, and God gave us free will, so voila – abortion is ok with God! Unbelievable.
Satisfied Housewife – thanks, you make some excellent points. We have wrenched control (or at least tried to) of all reproductive processes back from God. And look how well it has worked, broadly speaking! We used BC at times and now I regret it. I’m not saying it is definitively bad, but even pro-life Christians have developed a warped view of kids – i.e., a liability and not a blessing.
We did NFP for a while right after marriage. I’m not sure if it has changed much since then.
And yes, it is tragic how many people don’t know what their BC really does.
Neil,
Not kidding at all. I don’t think birth control is a sin, and I don’t think God gets mad because we stop an overy from ovulating.
My thyroid gland is malfunctional, does god want me to just accept that and die? Or am I allowed to fix the effect it has on my body? When my Dad gets an acid stomach and takes a medication to stop his stomach from secreting acid. Is that a sin? Then why should it be a sin to keep an ovary from releasing an egg?
Or am I OK because I got my tubes tied, and my ovaries still release eggs, or is it still a sin because I’m keeping them from being fertilized? Am I required to continue to get pregnant despite the fact that the last two pregnancies ended in very difficult and dangerous births?
Maybe I sinned against God’s will when I allowed the two c-sections that saved my baby’s lives? After all, I was fussing around with his “plan”…
Maybe Martain Luther was right when he said that women should have babies until they die from it, because that’s their function.
bizzare.
The logical fallacies here are making my head spin! But anyway.
NFP is pretty high-tech these days. And Theo, you are right- it is reliable. BTW, the Couple to League has some great information on NFP and its role in a healthy marriage. The biggest benefit I have seen for Jon and me is that it not only opens up communication (“Do we really want to do this now and accept the natural consequences? Or should we talk about this with clear heads and less raging hormones?”), but the responsibility for our family planning is now shared. Before, it was up to me.
Kelly,
Maybe I should have asked satisfiedhouswife what her exact argument was…but I’ve had the “brith control is a feminist sin” argument so many times, I guess I did skip to the end. It’s kind of boring to go over the same ground again and again, only to come out at the same place, which is ultimatly, that the only proper function for women is having babies and taking care of them. One wonders why he bothered to give us brains.
You’re right, the logical fallacies fly fast and furious, but I probably should have waited for each one to emerge.
Personally, I see a huge difference between preventing pregnancy and abortion. I don’t think that all of us are designed to be mothers – as much as I like kids, motherhood just isn’t for me.
Not being religious, I don’t put much stock into “be fruitful,” but I can understand if people do.
One of my friends comes from a very large family. They only stopped having kids (more than a dozen later) after her mom had several miscarriages and a hysterectomy. Without contraception, most women would have between 12 and 15 children in their lifetime, followed by (with modern medicine) a hysterectomy.
Our bodies aren’t designed to have children more than every two or three years. (That is some of the reason why breastfeeding suppresses ovulation.) Pregnancy leeches minerals from the bones, shrinks the brain, and does a lot of other not-so fun stuff.
I would never use that as an argument for abortion, because, between a little brain shrinkage and the possibility of osteoporosis and killing your child, I would choose the former. Nevertheless, we also must take care of our bodies and recognise their limits.
Whether this be done through NFP, condoms, or whatever, frankly, I don’t care… but it seems silly to prevent one issue (pregnancy) and cause others (depression, accidental abortion).
Not that children are burdens – if they come along, they should be loved and welcomed – but few people have what it takes to happily raise a dozen kids, much as few people have what it takes to join the priesthood, join Doctors Without Borders, become a missionary in a third-world country, or do any of the other perfect realisations of Christian thought, but we don’t tell anyone that they are subverting God’s will for running a bank instead of being a missionary. Why so with contraception?
“God also gave us dominion over all the earth. Last time I heard, our wombs were on earth.”
I thought you were talking about abortion. Based on your response it sounds like you were talking about birth control. Different topic. Sorry if I got you off track.
Neil,
No problem. I was responding to satisfiedhousewife’s view of birth control.
I can see why someone with Christian religious beliefs might consider either birth control or abortion to be a sin. In which case, I fully support them engaging in neither.
But when birth control becomes illegal, I’m moving to Canada.
You’ll like their taxes!
You bet! I just posted a thing on my blog with a break-down of Minnesota’s statistics.
Of course, when I lived in Alabama, the people there often asked me where I was from, and when I said “Minnesota” they said “How do you like America?” They insisted that Minnesota was part of Canada already.
I must admit, Minnesota is more like Canada than it is like Alabama.
Strangely, I’m OK with that.
I continue to be amazed that some think the difference between a fetus and a baby is merely its location. To say that it’s not a baby until it takes a breath – and that means it has had a change of venue – is totally illogical. But, with that line of reasoning, it makes partial birth abortion a mere medical procedure of removing tissue since the baby’s head is left inside the womb unable to draw its first breath before it is unmercifully tortured and killed.
Incredible to me, that in this day and age, with all we know scientifically about the unborn in its mother’s womb, that anyone would still think its ok to kill it.
Kelly, thanks for sharing your experience with NFP. Though I don’t use ‘the pill’ we also don’t know much about NFP and the more I hear the more I am interested.
Plus, now that we are TTC, I keep charting and watching. NFP goes both ways, yanno!
ccli.org is the Couple to Couple League website. Through that site, you can find teaching couples or classes in your area. If that isn’t convenient, there is a home-study course as well. You send your first few charts off to them each month to be sure that the interpretations are correct… Well worth the $75.
Thanks Kelly, i will look that up for sure. Now the challange will to be getting my husband on board