Many people downplay the importance of doctrine, saying such things as, “All the theology I need is that God is love” or “I just want to follow Jesus.” But they have a false idea of what doctrine is. It isn’t boring (at least it isn’t supposed to be). How do you know how to follow Jesus, or why you should follow Jesus, if you don’t have doctrine? Why on earth would you commit your life to someone without understanding Him or what He taught?
And yes, God is love, but that is just one of his attributes and not his complete definition. And what kind of love does this mean – a sentimental, pampering love or the agape kind of love where you have the long term best interests of the other person at heart and would willingly sacrifice for them?
There are countless false teachers in our churches today, and they do great damage to individuals and the church. We must know the truth well so we can spot them. Here is a great article by Charles Spurgeon about false teachers. Please read it.
Listed at the bottom of this post are just some of the verses pointing us to the importance of sound doctrine. Jesus expected the Disciples to understand his teachings. Also, keep in mind that Jesus spent much of his time rebuking the Pharisees for their false teachings, and a major part of the New Testament letters was devoted to corrections of errors in the church. If Jesus warned against false prophets doesn’t that imply that there are true prophets?
If anyone thinks these verses are taken out of context, please let me know. Some of my theologically liberal blogging buddies implied as such, saying I had selected them in a “willy nilly” fashion. However, they provided zero (0) examples. Perhaps they could start with the first passage, which actually contains the phrase “sound doctrine.” If I took something out of context it wouldn’t be the first or last time, but I am quite correctable and rarely make the same mistake twice.
One blogger mocked me for “actually believing that God cares for something called sound doctrine.” His position is self-refuting and un-Biblical. Sound doctrine is merely accurate theological teaching. Given two choices of God either caring about sound doctrine or not caring, He chose the latter while I chose the former. If God agrees with him, then he has properly taught God’s view. But that would mean that God cares about the proper teaching of not caring about proper teaching, and that the blogger seems to think it is important to convey sound doctrine on the point of sound doctrine not being important. Indeed. It would also mean that God had to communicate his lack of caring about sound doctrine. Did He do that in the Bible (where?) or outside it?
Read the verses – or the whole Bible, for that matter – and decide for yourself if God cares about sound doctrine.
2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
2 Timothy 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
Acts 20:28-31 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.
Matthew 7:15-20 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Matthew 24:4-12 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ, ’ and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains. “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
Matthew 24:24-27 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time. “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Romans 1:20-22 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
2 Corinthians 11:12-15 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
Galatians 1:6-10 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.
Ephesians 4:11-14 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
Ephesians 5:6-11 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
Colossians 2:4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments.
Colossians 2:8-12 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
Colossians 2:18-19 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
1 Timothy 6:20-21 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you.
2 Timothy 3:1-7 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them. They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth.
2 Timothy 3:12-14 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it,
2 Peter 1:16 We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2 Peter 1:20-2:3 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
1 John 4:1-3 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
1 Corinthians 1:18-25 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.
1 Thessalonians 5:6-11 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.
Jude 3-4 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. [Read all of Jude - it is only 25 verses and says a lot about false teachers.]
2 Timothy 2:23-25 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,
Titus 1:9-2:1 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain. . . . Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth. To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good. You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.
Deuteronomy 13:1-5 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.
Jeremiah 5:31 The prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and my people love it this way. But what will you do in the end?
1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Jeremiah 14:14 Then the Lord said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.
2 John 7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.
Romans 16:17-18 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.
John 8:44-45 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!
2 Corinthians 10:5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
1 Timothy 4:16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
Also see Jesus’ messages to the churches in Revelation 2-3 and all the passages where Jesus rebukes the Pharisees for their false teachings.
The Holy Bible : New International Version. 1996, c1984 Grand Rapids: Zondervan.
A man is not to be judged a heretic for speaking or writing an error – we all fall into this group. A heretic is one who continues in teaching falsehoods that strike at the basics of Christian beliefs. Stuart Brogden
I, for one, agree that it is important what we believe. I also believe that it is important that we approach our faith with humility, recognizing our own fallen humanity.
I especially agree with this passage:
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all.
And think we need to watch out that we don’t add stuff that the Bible doesn’t teach.
And when we do genuinely disagree (and it happens) Paul is right on in telling Timothy:
Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.
When we disagree, we need not engage in foolish arguments, but instead need to work to teach one another God’s Word as we understand it, with humility and without all the bitterness and demonization that we find ourselves tempted to engage in.
Neil said: If anyone has any comments on Dan’s views then please contact him directly. I don’t want anything posted here that he wouldn’t have an opportunity to respond to.
“And think we need to watch out that we don’t add stuff that the Bible doesn’t teach.”
Good advice, Dan. Coming from most people I’d assume that was a serious comment.
Thank you. Coming from most people, I’d assume your comment was a joke.
Thanks, Neil! You just eliminated any need for me to take this post seriously! Bravo!
Dan supports gay marriage, which requires him to argue from silence and even argue in the face of what the Bible actually teaches about marriage, and Dan has speculated that passages of the Old Testament law are not revelations from a holy God but rather additions by sinful men trying to justify atrocities by invoking God’s name — which would mean that, by his own definition, the Old Testament itself contains blasphemies.
Given this, I think Neil’s skepticism at Dan’s criticism of extrabiblical doctrine is well-founded.
Time and again Dan provides ample evidence that A) he doesn’t believe everything in the Bible and B) he affirms things that the Bible not only doesn’t teach but often also rejects.
And yet Dan doesn’t hesitate to take this posture of a Christian who loves and reveres the entire Bible and is wary of introducing any extrabiblical doctrine.
The posturing is obnoxious, much more so than Neil’s flippant response, because at some point it has become clear that Dan isn’t going to take Christianity seriously enough to be honest about his beliefs.
A question for Dan.
I believe Neil would agree with me that the Bible is quite clear about its divine authorship, yet you, Dan, apparently believe that it isn’t clear because “God never [explicitly] called the 66 books of the Bible ‘his word.’”
I think this is the sort of arguing that a petulant teenager engages in — he knows exactly what his parents expect but is looking for loopholes — and it’s the sort of arguing that I see from you about gay marriage: just because Jesus affirms that God made us male and female for heterosexual marriage, it (somehow) doesn’t imply that there aren’t other morally permissible expressions of human sexuality.
But let’s take the argument at face value.
Neil wrote: If God, the Creator of the Universe says the Bible is His word, he is not lying, kidding, or even mistaken. Take it as fact.
You reply: This is an adding to of God’s Word. God never called the 66 books of the Bible “his word.” Y’all are making extrabiblical assumptions and then demanding that others do the same to be Christian. That, too, is extrabiblical and not sound doctrine.
You now write: And think we need to watch out that we don’t add stuff that the Bible doesn’t teach.
You object to Neil’s assertion that the Bible say that it is God’s word yet insist that teachings outside the Bible isn’t sound doctrine and that we shouldn’t add doctrinces that the Bible doesn’t teach.
But why should we care what the Bible teaches and avoid adding to it if we cannot affirm its divine authorship without sailing into extrabiblical waters?
The Bible’s unique authority ABSOLUTELY DEPENDS on its unique authorship. If the Bible itself does not claim to be divinely inspired, just why in the world is it so important that we don’t add to the Bible?
It seems to me that you’re saying this:
1) The Bible is clear that we shouldn’t add extrabiblical doctrines.
2) The Bible is NOT clear about its own divine authorship.
I don’t believe #2 is true, but if it is, I see no reason to trust #1. Maybe I just don’t see the obvious, so I ask you to enlighten me: why should we believe the Bible about not adding any further doctrines (#1) if the Bible is silent about its own source (#2)?
Bubba said:
And yet Dan doesn’t hesitate to take this posture of a Christian who loves and reveres the entire Bible and is wary of introducing any extrabiblical doctrine.
It’s no posture, it is reality. You are free to believe it or not.
What you ought not do (but based on past experience, I’m sure you will) is suggest that I don’t take Christianity seriously. You can point to ZERO places where I have contradicted Christ’s teachings. ZERO.
You can point to ZERO places where I have failed to be honest about my beliefs. ZERO.
You can point to ZERO places where I have added teachings that I’ve claimed are “essential to the faith” that are not biblically-based and quite obvious. ZERO.
When you do so, you will bear false witness against me and those like me. You will break one of the CLEAR Ten Commandments given to us (and echoed by Christ) in order to try to defame a Christian who is opposed to adding extrabiblical teachings as “essentials” to the faith.
I am saved by God’s Grace, not by jumping through your hoops.
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all.
=====
Bubba also said:
which would mean that, by his own definition, the Old Testament itself contains blasphemies.
And
Dan provides ample evidence that he doesn’t believe everything in the Bible
[Which is a bald-faced lie. I have been quite clear that I believe the Bible. I don't think it correct to interpret the Bible literally, but that is not the same as not believing in the Bible. The first time or two this lie is asserted, it could seem to be a misunderstanding. After the dozenth time correcting this misunderstanding, one has to begin to assume that the person is just lying through their teeth. Bearing false witness.]
I’ll clarify this one more time for others who may be reading: A LITERAL interpretation of genocidal passages in the OT does contain blasphemies. But I’m not the one who is reading the Bible literally – many others here claim to be, but not me.
Although, you all seem to be quite free with abandoning literal truths (thou shalt not bear false witness, for instance) in favor of extrabiblical traditions. “Which is really no gospel at all…”
Bubba asked:
The Bible’s unique authority ABSOLUTELY DEPENDS on its unique authorship. If the Bible itself does not claim to be divinely inspired, just why in the world is it so important that we don’t add to the Bible?
Intellectual honesty?
[and, as an aside, when you say that the Bible's unique authority absolutely depends on its unique authorship, that is yet another extrabiblical teaching. Do you understand why it's difficult for some to take it seriously that you believe the Bible is "God's inerrant Word," when most of your "essential" and "important" truths are extrabiblical in nature?
You are arguing that your doctrine is inerrant and unassailable and that is what some of us disagree with. You are free to believe it all you want. And if it helps you on your path to God, good for you! Just don't insist that your extrabiblical teachings MUST be taken as God's Word because the Bible says so...when the Bible doesn't say so.]
Excellent post, Neil! It’s unfortunate that the commenters here just don’t get the significance of your post. This verse tells us exactly why they don’t get it:
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
In addition, the Bible tells us that they are unaware of the “deep things of God” primarily because they do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God” (yet…that is!)
1 Corinthians 2 instructs us even further on this issue:
1 Corinthians 2
In asking the question above, I obviously ignore another key question. Dan apparently believes we can doubt the Bible’s authorship because “God never called the 66 books of the Bible ‘his word,’” but did God ever make clear that we shouldn’t add to the doctrines enumerated specifically in the 66 canonical books?
Again, I wonder if the beliefs Dan affirms would hold up to the same scrutiny he applies to the beliefs he rejects.
It’s unfortunate that the commenters here just don’t get the significance of your post.
Gee, this is the grief I get for AGREEING with Neil!! This is really pretty funny, y’all. If I’m AGREEING with you and you are rejecting my point, does that mean that you reject Neil’s post???
Neil,
Good post. I love the Spurgeon article as well. He really lays it out the need for us to strive to be truthful. Sometimes I wonder if all these battles we face in the blogosphere are not really detractions from studying the truth more earnestly. After all, have we seen anyone come to our side in these battles? Not sure that we have.
But I do trust that there are those who never comment that are encouraged by the work for truth. So press on.
When I first read Timothy’s comment, I was confused for a minute but reread it and think I understand what he was saying. At first, I thought he was discounting bubba , Marshall and other’s comments but realized that he was meaning that we may not be changing minds of those on the different side. I try not to give up hope on some, but I do think it is important to at least let those who are not committed, see the truth and pray that the Holy Spirit will draw them to search the scriptures and come to know Jesus, The Way, The Truth and The Life.
There are two “Christian” commenters I don’t listen to for edification, teaching, etc. They have proven to be divisive and religious ideas dangerous to the faith. They offer no proof for their stances, except that “they believe” or verses taken out of context and misused. They keep arguing the same things over and over, though they have been given sound teaching and correction from other well studied Christians on this site at least. I can not think much about men who do not listen to the godly correction of multiple Christians, with Biblical explanations and proof of doctrine. I agree with christinewjc, Timothy, and Mom2.
Kristine said:
There are two “Christian” commenters I don’t listen to for edification, teaching, etc. They have proven to be divisive and religious ideas dangerous to the faith.
I welcome you to show me, Kristine, any single teaching of Jesus that I disagree with. Even one. Jesus commands you, if you have ought against your brother, to bring it up to him. I welcome you to do so either here or at my email.
I have accepted Jesus into my heart (lo, these 34 years now), asked for forgiveness of sin, tried by God’s grace to follow in Jesus’ steps and to be holy as God is holy, also as the Bible commands.
I’ve even agreed with Neil in this posting. Wholeheartedly, that it is important what we believe. I’ve affirmed my position against adding to the “essentials” anything that is not found within the Bible.
If you can tell me where I’m not following Christ, where I’m advocating an essential as found in God’s Word, where I’ve strayed from God’s Way, I welcome you to talk to me about it. paynehollow at yahoo dot com. Or you can google my name and get my home address and phone number. I am transparent about who I am and what I believe.
So, do as the Bible says and talk with me about it or end the disparaging of brothers in Christ. I think it fair to kindly ask you to put up or shut up.
Dan, you’re agreeing with Neil, but I personally believe you’re doing so in a fit of passive-aggressive behavior, because in the last thread you were asserting that it’s extrabiblical for Neil to affirm the Bible’s divine authorship.
Note that I didn’t say you don’t take Christianity seriously: I just don’t believe you take it seriously enough not to play games with your beliefs.
What you ought not do (but based on past experience, I’m sure you will) is suggest that I don’t take Christianity seriously. You can point to ZERO places where I have contradicted Christ’s teachings. ZERO.
I can point to at least two.
1) Christ affirmed the OT law to the smallest penstroke, and you have speculated that passages were inserted by godless men who wanted to justify atrocities by blasphemously attributing them to God.
2) Christ affirmed that God made us male and female for implicitly heterosexual marriage — a man (male) and his wife (femaile) becoming one flesh — and you argue that Christ simply wasn’t clear enough, that maybe there were other reasons that nullify the reason given and allow Christians to endorse gay “marriage.”
You can point to ZERO places where I have failed to be honest about my beliefs. ZERO.
You say that you love the entire Bible but speculate that portions of Dueteronomy were the work of sinful men trying to justify atrocities by dishonestly attributing them to God’s will. If that’s not grossly dishonest, it’s utterly incomprehensible.
You can point to ZERO places where I have added teachings that I’ve claimed are “essential to the faith” that are not biblically-based and quite obvious. ZERO.
That acually is correct, but since you cannot show where I implied any such thing, I hardly see its relevance.
Your accusation of my bearing false witness falls on its face.
I have been quite clear that I believe the Bible. I don’t think it correct to interpret the Bible literally, but that is not the same as not believing in the Bible. The first time or two this lie is asserted, it could seem to be a misunderstanding. After the dozenth time correcting this misunderstanding, one has to begin to assume that the person is just lying through their teeth. Bearing false witness.
Let me cite your most offensive speculation about the meaning of a passage in Deuteronomy you believe command atrocities:
“What does it mean? Well, it could stand as testimony of humanity’s desire to get God’s endorsement on even the most heinous of actions. Or a note that we can justify even the most horrible crimes, if it’s ‘god’s will.’”
This is NOT the speculation of a man who sincerely believes the entire Bible. It’s one thing to argue that a passage should be taken figuratively rather than literally — though I still haven’t seen precisely how we should take those passages in Deuteronomy figuratively — and it’s quite another to speculate that passages that were clearly attributed to God Himself were really lies inserted by evil men in order to “justify the most horrible crimes.”
Perhaps, Dan, you were too busy trying to call me a liar, but you still didn’t answer my question:
If the Bible’s divine authorship is an extrabiblical doctrine, why should we even care that the Bible teaches against extrabiblical doctrines?
In the absence of an explanation, “intellectual honesty” is a decidedly dishonest attempt at an answer.
Again, you wrote that “we need to watch out that we don’t add stuff that the Bible doesn’t teach.”
Given your dismissal of Neil’s earlier assertion, it’s not clear why we need to watch out: why should we watch out if the Bible isn’t clear about its divine authorship? If its divine authorship is extrabiblical grounds for relying on its authority, on what grounds do you assert that we shouldn’ t add to the Bible?
“Good advice, Dan. Coming from most people I’d assume that was a serious comment.”
Aw c’mon, that wasn’t very nice now.
Well, I’ve been absent for a bit, but I see some things never change. The sad fact is I think you can find the “genocidal passages” argument (in some fashion or another) on every post even remotely related to Biblical interpretation (and also many that aren’t at all). On to the point…
Excellent post with some very good points, Neil. Many months ago, my wife and I actually made a prayerful (and difficult) decision to leave the church we were attending . I realized for all the “lessons” we were “taught,” none were rooted in sound doctrine. I can distinctly remember several in which the pastor didn’t even have his Bible open (or any biblical references, for that matter). The point is that we need to continue to grow as Christians, and doctrine is how we do that. How can you convince somebody to believe in something when you don’t know why to believe it yourself? Far too many people (and entire churches, like my former)shape the Bible to fit THEIR doctrine or views.
The “genocidal passages” were God’s wrath poured out for disbelief and rebellion against Him. God does and will destroy those who rebell against and disbelieve in His Son. It is horrible to think that even little children would/could deserve God’s punishment. His wrath is terrible and fearful to contemplate. But we must. Disbelief is that serious to God. It makes us realize how valuable and powerful His grace and love are. We must realize that we have sinned against God and rebelled against Him just as heniously those who were punished in those instances of “genocide” and deserve the same judgement and destruction. Were it not for His grace, we would recieve a far worse one eternally.
If we dismiss those passages, we cannot fully appreciate the ones of love, grace, mercy, acceptance, adoption and eternal life.
The church I grew up in was like that, too. We were shocked when a pastor preached holding the Bible in his hand.
Chance, you are right. That was an unproductive way to start the morning.
PJ – I hope that your new church is working out well. We left a church over 10 years ago when we weren’t growing and it was a great move. I didn’t know it at the time, but its doctrine was very weak and unbalanced (large doses of cheap grace).
“Worship God or die!”
“Come to me all ye who are weak and heavy-laden — or I will kill you!”
“Innocent Babies in the Hands of an Angry God.”
Never, not even in my most redneck right-wing, he-man, chauvinist, Bible-thumping, “The Total Woman”-preaching, PTL-watching days, did I EVER conceive of God as the murderous, capricious, baby-killing monster described above!
My God! Forgive them for they know not what they believe!
Sound doctrine:
Micah 6:8:
He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
James 1:27:
Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
E.R., you appear to think you are in the possession of accurate teaching and that it is important to hold your view.
I’ll take that as validation of my general premise, if perhaps not the teachings themselves.
“Worship God or die!”
E.R… While I can see the thought of God’s anger disturbs you, it IS a reality.
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness…Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death…” Romans 1:18, 32.
“For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.” Isa 66:14-15
“In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power” 2TH 1:8-9
“murderous, capricious, baby-killing monster”
I think it’s important to understand that God’s anger is righteous and very much justified. If you believe He is the one and only God in heaven, He SHOULD be mad when we disobey or ignore Him. I don’t view God’s wrath (or what I’m sure some in here would call my”extrabiblical”assumptions of His wrath) as capricious. I would view it as justified…terrible, but justified. He showed enough grace and mercy to send his son to die for us and we STILL disobey Him. Sad and horrific, but very true and deserved.
PJ, and everyone else: “unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness …”
We’re talking about BABIES who died in the supposed God-ordained murder of entire cities, as depicted in the O.T. If you think that’s true, and that that “god” is a God you want to worship, then shut UP about abortion. No more! You don’t give a rip about babies, born or unborn.
E.R., do you see a distinction between God destroying a city and humans doing it? (or humans destroying the unborn?)
NOTHING lends more credence to my claim that biblical inerrantists worship the Bible more than God God’s self, or EQUATE it with the Godhead, than rabid “defense” of the Bible! Y’all act like I am attacking God God’s self! BULL. I am attacking the IDOLATRY of people so afraid that they don’t trust the LORD — but in in their own opinion of “the Bible.”
GOLDEN CALF.
E.R., we worship the God who revealed himself to us in the Bible. I pray to God. I love God.
The God who speaks through his Word. He can reveal himself to us outside his Word, but that isn’t the norm and any revelations should be tested in light of Scripture.
I’m not sure how you draw the conclusion that I am so afraid that I don’t trust the Lord or that I worship the Bible. I trust that He is powerful enough to reveal himself to us accurately.
Have you read Psalm 119 lately? The author really loved the Word.
This is where your whole premise falls apart. The Psalmist loves the Word. The NEW TESTAMENT did not exist then. The Bible did not exist then. Whatever the Psalmist was writing about, it was not the Bible.
ER, I’m aware that the Psalms were in the OT. My point was just that the author loved what was written at that time. Was he an idolator?
Re, “E.R., do you see a distinction between God destroying a city and humans doing it?”
NO. NO. NO. It’s DEATH administered to individual people — INNOCENT BABIES — who could not possibly have deserved it.
And I stand with my puny fist up, and shaking it in God’s face, DEMANDING that God explain God’s self!
How DARE GOD create me, and you, to give a damn about life — when God, according to the O.T., does NOT!
And I do so standing in CHRISTIAN LIBERTY, ready for God to strike me down and break my hip, as our tradition says God did Jacob’s, if I am out of line for daring to question God’s inconsistency.
That, or I dismiss the O.T. stories as quickly as I dismiss the stories about how “God cursed” New Orleans with Katrina.
Spong’s not right about everything. He is DEAD ON with the title of his book, “The Sins of Scripture.”
Thanks for making your views clear. Just for the record, I thought the “God cursed N.O.” stories weren’t well thought out, but I wouldn’t dismiss Scripture the way I would dismiss them. But I didn’t realize anyone had equated them with Scripture.
Maske up your mind. Are you asking me if I think the Psalmist loved what was written at that time, or are you asking me whether the Psalmist, pre-loved what we now call the Bible before it was wtritten?
I thought I was clear. He obviously just had access to what had been written up to that time. And he referred to it as God’s word many times. And he was quite keen on it. Just because God added to the Scriptures after that doesn’t mean what had been revealed at that time wasn’t his word.
You are very rarely clear when you talk about “the Bible” but quote verses IN the Bible supposedly ABOUT “the Bible” that were written when “the Bible” didn’t exist. Check your logic cheatsheet.
My apologies if I wasn’t clear. Please permit me to try again: You said you were “attacking the IDOLATRY of people so afraid that they don’t trust the LORD” and claimed we loved the Bible more than God. That just reminded me of Psalm 119, and I wondered what your opinion was of the author (i.e., Was he being idolatrous towards what he knew of God’s word?).
If you don’t want to answer, that’s ok. I just wanted you to understand where I was coming from.
What about hell? i mean eternal damnation for a short time of sin on earth? Doe not seem fair, but is that not what the good book says.
Would you agree that man goes to hell for eternity? If so, why?
Why eternity? Is that fair?
I would like to hear from the ones that think it is wrong for God to condemn and judge whole cities. What do you think of Genesis 15:16? Not enough time was given? Was He not justified in his actions after all the time had elapsed?
Would a baby or child be less of a sinner than us?
Questions, questions
magnus
Re, “But I didn’t realize anyone had equated them with Scripture.” I DIDN’T SAY ANYONE DID.
I misunderstood then. I thought you were equating the N.O. sayings and the “genocide” parts of the Bible as equally unreliable sources when you said, “I dismiss the O.T. stories as quickly as I dismiss the stories about how “God cursed” New Orleans with Katrina.”
Re, “Would a baby or child be less of a sinner than us?”
YES. YES. YES. HELL — so to speak — YES!!!
I pretty much think that those who go to hell — whatever THAT means — will hardly notice the difference, being so full of themselves in the first place that they will hardly notice the absence of GOD, which is the meaning of hell to begin with.
So would you say that man starts out good? if so, what do you base that on? Can we stay in that state of goodness?
So a child does not need the atoning work of Christ to be justified?
Thanks in advance for the clarification and/or the answer.
mag
Sounds like hell is a party place. “they will hardly notice the absence of God” what about the wailing and gnashing of teeth bit? Added later by an over zealous convert?
mag
Re, “If you don’t want to answer, that’s ok.” You can be so smug.
Since the Hebrew translated “word” in Psalm 119 means something like “speech” or “message” or “cause” in every instance, it doesn’t jhave a thing to do with what I’m talking about, which is a group of writings, many of which didn’t exist when the Psalmist wrote that, and, in any case, does not refer to WRITTEN words bound and grouped into a “book.”
Try again.
I really wasn’t trying to be smug. You just seemed intent on twisting what I was asking rather than anwering the question.
There are countless references to the law, decrees, etc. in Psalm 119. It seems pretty obvious to me that this would at least be the Pentateuch and not some extra-Biblical writing.
Re, “Added later by an over zealous convert?”
Yes. Just look at the additions to the Truth by zealots in this thread. And you probably shout about just how hellish an existence utterly without God would be. No one on this planet, or in human history, has been so absent from God.
Sorry. Correction:
And you probably should think about just how hellish an existence utterly without God would be. No one on this planet, or in human history, has been so absent from God.
Re, “So a child does not need the atoning work of Christ to be justified?”
CORRECT!
My God! What happened to the concept of “accountability”? Some ADULTS aren’t accountable! Would you condemn the severely retarded to hell? The devil LOVES you if you do.
You never did answer the does man go to hell for all eternity? if so why?
Also, was Jesus absent from God when he cried “My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me?”
If no then what was he?
ER, When Jesus was facing the cross and crucifixion, He sweat as it were blood and because He was bearing our sins upon Himself, He felt as though God had forsaken Him. The horrible burden of sin that He felt may give us some insight as to how horrible will be those who die without Christ as their Savior, but man’s plight will be for eternity.
Yes. Just look at the additions to the Truth by zealots in this thread. And you probably shout about just how hellish an existence utterly without God would be. No one on this planet, or in human history, has been so absent from God.>
Do you really believe that to be a true description of us?
Neil,
I greatly enjoyed the Spurgeon piece. Not only is it spot on regarding false teachers, but I like the way he talks. We just don’t see such use of the language these days.
But his point, I believe, regarding those who preach against the creed of the denomination that pays them, is an inter-Christian concern that has an “on the other hand” illustrated by the migration of PJ from one church to another that better reflects his beliefs. I know I’m in the wrong church doctrinally, but I really like the people, who are not as linked to the doctrine of the denomination (not everyone, anyway) since each congregation within it is autonomous. This would be a UCC church. For ER, it’s perfect in it’s ambigious manner of setting creed and mission. But this, too, squares with something Spurgeon said regarding the fact that such churches exist by their own volition, thus, there’s no problem. A bit of problem for me, however.
Yet, after all of that is said and done, we are still left with that segment that has strayed so far and “tolerates” so much, that it is only by their self-definition they are Christian, but not by any real connection to Biblical teaching. Even Spong still calls himself a Christian, and as we’ve discussed, it’s clear he is not.
But here, where we’ve been hashing these things out, we must still contend with these arguments that leave no true picture of where some stand. (Stop! This is not to say anyone has to do anything. I’m just sayin’…) The OT is dismissed for being written by ancients who are merely relating what they think God said to them. Not relevant to the modern Christian. Quoting Jesus doesn’t work because he was speaking to the Jews of His time. Not relevant to the modern Christian. Can’t rely on Paul, because he’s supposedly all over the board, and thus, too confusing for the modern Christian to give much worth. But Grace! That invisible, intangible something from God, the existence of which would be unknowable by the modern Christian without the teachings of the Bible, THAT is real and true and innerrant. I’m really not trying to be flip in any way, here. I just truly don’t get it and wish I could simply to understand another person’s reasoning.
Dan,
Just can’t not respond to your comments. You leave such an impression!
Genocide is not what God does. He dishes out Justice and/or Retribution. Genocide is murder on the largest scale. God does not murder. Mankind murders. It’s the total annihilation of an entire group of people that’s confusing you.
You can say you love the Bible all you want. I have no doubt that this is true. Sincerely. But on the few issues that have been beaten to death on these blogs, your belief in what it is saying is gravely suspect. This is what is being debated, not your faith, and the constant defense is a backhanded accusation against most who dispute your version.
It is also true that you are indeed extra-Biblical in your interpretations, particularly homosexual behavior, by insisting that the lack of Jesus quotes specifically against it allows for it. This is as extra-Biblical as flatly stating He says it’s OK.
I’m not swayed by your assertions that you have not distorted “essentials” of the faith, yet, by asserting the above, you indeed distort essentials in an end-run. One way or the other, you’re going to make it say what appeals to you, what seems more “Christian” or “Godly” whether it’s Scripturally sound or not, whether a host of reasonable people would come to that conclusion or not.
Does your acceptance of Christ as your Savior make you a Christian? Sure. Are you doctrinally sound? Doesn’t appear so. Are you free to believe what you want? Of course! There indeed seems to be parts of the Bible that you don’t like. (The same is true for others who post here) There are parts I don’t much like either. If we relate our faith with the taking of the bad with the good, it seems we on this side are more ready to take it all than you and yours.
Disclaimer: Note how many times I use the word “seems”. Keep that in mind as I’ve not made any “truth claims” against you.
Re, “It seems pretty obvious to me that this would at least be the Pentateuch and not some extra-Biblical writing.”
Who says it refers to WRITING at all??? That’s where you make your biggest mistake. Mass-produced WRITING is a relatively NEW thing for everyday people. To insist that ANY writing is “God’s Word” is to reduce the message, cause and witness of God’s people to a pathetic THING. And any THING so clung to is an idol.
Re, “You just seemed intent on twisting what I was asking rather than anwering the question.” Bull. You just can’t handle straight talk that disagrees with you without pretense or apology.
Magnus: 1., Since “eternity,” which is a description of endless time, can have meaning only to humans, for whom time is a reality, but not to God, for whom it is part of the Creation, I choose not to answer the question because I think it’s irrelevant. 2. Jesus is said to have moaned that God had foresaken him. God most certainly did forsake him on the Cross; so, Jesus was declaring that God had abaondoned him.
MA, on Grace, “the existence of which would be unknowable by the modern Christian without the teachings of the Bible.” Absolutely not. Anyone who seeks God and gets even close to finding God, and realizes he has nbot been annihilated, knows God’s grace, whether or not he calls it by that name.
ER,
Which “zealot” is adding to Scripture? I think we’re going out of our way to discern as exactly as possible what the Bible says. Our disagreements stem from what appears to us to be disparities by those like Dan, who, in our opinion, is doing the distorting, if not the adding and subtracting.
But you, too, seem to dismiss those parts of the Bible you don’t like, such as the annihilation of entire towns, because of “the babies”. Since it says no more than the fact that He destroyed everyone, we could all sit and speculate as to whether “the babies” were allowed to feel nothing, perhaps were allowed to enter heaven, were forced by heavenly agents into hard labor as cherubs, or just about anything. But it would only be speculation as the Book says nothing on the subject. That’s too bad for those whose sensibilities can’t distinguish between what is permissable for God, and what HE says is permissable for us. You look upon such incidents with the eyes and heart of a human being and expect God to act as one of us, which He clearly isn’t. Of all the mysteries that we may learn in the hereafter, this one is high on my list as well. Until then, I’m satisfied that if He did it, He had a good reason for it. A Truth we can’t know. Not one of the Truths we can know by our study of Scripture.
Last one, if Neil will print it:
MA said:
Our disagreements stem from what appears to us to be disparities by those like Dan, who, in our opinion, is doing the distorting, if not the adding and subtracting.
My presence here is not welcome and generating only heat, no light. So I’m leaving. You are all welcome to discuss things with me at my email or blog.
I will say one more time that MA’s statement above (among other similar statements) is a bald-faced lie. He can not demonstrate the first thing I’ve added to scripture. I have interpreted scriptures in ways that he disagrees with. That is not the same thing as adding to scriptures.
Peace to you all.
Neil said: I think people are capable of reading the voluminous comment threads and drawing their own conclusions on that.
Please contact Dan directly if you have any future comments/questions for him (other than responding to any allegations in his comment). I don’t want anyone to criticize his views without him being able to respond.
Marshal Art,
“Until then, I’m satisfied that if He did it, He had a good reason for it.”
Yes, I think the first thing we have to do is TRUST GOD.
I also think that we need to remember that when God looks at life, he does not just consider time spent on earth.
God wanted to show people what they needed to do to be acceptable to him (what we call salvation). And he chose to give people free will.
His plan required prophecies, it required the Roman empire to be established, the city of Bethlehem to be built, and more details than we can grasp.
To nudge people in the right direction he chose Abraham and his descendants. I believe that what God commanded them to do was necessary in preparation for salvation.
Salvation was not available to those people who lived in those times, so when they died was not particularly important. I believe they will be granted an opportunity to make the choice of salvation at some point.
As to the deaths, even of babies and children, we only see our side of that. It might look quite different from God’s side.
So I repeat, we have to TRUST GOD.
ER,
“To insist that ANY writing is “God’s Word” is to reduce the message, cause and witness of God’s people to a pathetic THING. And any THING so clung to is an idol.”
I don’t recall anyone saying it had to be read or written. (Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.) Even if it was passed on orally it is still the word of God.
I don’t see anyone adding to it or making an idol of it.
You sure make a lot of definitive truth claims there. Got a source for those? Were they a special revelation from God? Are you adding to Scripture?
ER, there’s a lot that should be said about the statement Neil highlights.
To insist that ANY writing is “God’s Word” is to reduce the message, cause and witness of God’s people to a pathetic THING. And any THING so clung to is an idol.
All four Gospels record that Christ often appealed to Scripture as a final authority, as He often used the phrase “it is written” as if that’s all we need to know. During His temptation in the wilderness, the appeal to Scripture was the only tool He used in reply to Satan, and He used the tool repeatedly.
All issues of inerrancy aside: if the Gospels cannot be trusted in accurately recording Christ’s affirmation of Scripture’s authority, they can’t be trusted at all, and we can know nothing about what Christ did and taught. Or, if you concede that the Gospels were accurate but suggest that Christ was wrong to make such a repeated, emphatic affirmation, then Christ can’t be trusted at all: if He’s wrong to affirm Scripture’s authority, there’s no reason to trust He’s right on matters of salvation.
Ultimately, I see no justification for denying at least the possibility that God can reveal Himself in a written revelation. There’s nothing inherently contradictory in the idea, so the denial unduly limits God.
If God is eternal and unchanging, why can He not reveal aspects about Himself to a small group of people who recorded that revelation in written words for future generations?
Does God reveal Himself only in the Bible? Of course not: He also revealed Himself in the universe He created, in circumstances He orchestrates, in the church that He guides, in personal relationships with His prophets and apostles, and most emphatically in the Incarnation of Jesus Christ.
Christ alone, being God Himself and God’s capital-w Word, is the ultimate authority of His own revelation, but since He ascended and has not yet returned, we cannot ask Him for direct guidance in the way we would consult with an earthly father or brother. But since He affirmed Scripture’s authority, I think it is safe to cling to Scripture as authoritative, with the Holy Spirit’s guidance. In the absence of more direct rule from Christ, I think we must have some sort of hierarchy of revelation: a possible message of one source must be judged against another, or vice versa. I think that the safest thing is to judge possible private revelations against Scripture, safest in no small part because of the example Christ Himself gave.
Yes, yes, when Christ appealed to Scripture’s authority, He was appealing only to the Old Testament, and it was after the Ascension that His Apostles (James, John, Peter, Paul) and those Apostles’ closest companions (Matthew, Luke) wrote gospels, epistles, and one apocalyptic work that we have since affirmed as inspired and canonical. But the fact remains, Christ explicitly affirmed that the written revelation of Moses and the OT prophets were authoritative.
It seems that your fundamental problem is with the problem of pain: if God is good and powerful, why is there pain in the world?
Babies die: you don’t need to read the Old Testament to see that. The Indian Ocean tsunami was proof enough that God’s universe is deadly, and closer to home and on a much smaller scale — but no less devastating — is the very existence of pediatric cancer wards in every city that can afford them.
It seems to me that you reject the Bible’s authority because its answer to the problem of pain is unsatisfactory to you. To me, the book of Job is proof enough that God doesn’t have to answer our every question, even the tough questions that threaten our faith, but Calvary remains as an answer that is more than sufficient and more than we could have ever hoped for.
If you do reject the Bible’s authority, for this or whatever reason, I think you’re swimming into dangerous waters, spiritually: to change metaphors, you’re casting away your map and compass to sail open waters on gut instinct alone.
That’s bad enough, but the least you could do is not insist that Christianity follow you, and not insist that those who do rely on Scripture’s authority are idolatrous zealots for not following you to who knows where.
In response to ER’s comments about God killing babies…
God has the authority to decide who lives and who dies, He not only has the power, He has the moral authority to do so. And I believe babies are innocent before God, so they simply get to be with Him earlier. Now, this may seem like a contradiction, because with that, one could conclude “well, shouldn’t we just kill babies because they definitely get to go to heaven”, but then that is an issue of US deciding when people leave this life vs. HIM deciding when people leave this life.
But I think this illustrates the difference in our doctrinal views. You are seeing things in the Bible (such as God killing babies), and since that goes against your perception of God, you reject it. But for me, that view of the Bible and God is problematic. You accuse us of limiting God and worshiping the Bible, but in my view, you are limiting God by comparing Him against what YOU think should God should be like, and you are using your own philosophy to determine what is correct and incorrect.
And I think it is possible to separate US killing babies vs. GOD killing babies. God chooses our time (although one can differentiate the process of old age vs. God smiting people), but nevertheless, many people believe God has ultimate authority over life, and they believe that, yet believe we shouldn’t kill people, so I don’t see the dilemma you see with the pro-life position.
That all being said, I just don’t like the overall tone of the comment thread (that’s not against you ER, I’m just talking overall). I think the debate has been raised to an unhealthy level. Just my thoughts.
Chance
Well said.
“That all being said, I just don’t like the overall tone of the comment thread (that’s not against you ER, I’m just talking overall). I think the debate has been raised to an unhealthy level. Just my thoughts.”
I completely agree. It’s interesting because the original commentary about “genocidal passages” were people (I include myself) mentioning Dan’s views on them (and persistant reference to them). I certainly, when I made my comments, didn’t mean to help ignite such a firestorm. It’s a shame that this thread has a habit of turning into personal attacks. I stand by my position about believing in God and His WHOLE Word…not just what makes us comfortable. However, I would like to be able to debate with E.R. (using you as an example E.R, not meaning to single you out) and others who oppose my viewpoints as intelligently and peaceably as possible. I hope that when things get out of hand on the ol’ blog that it’s because everyone is so passionate about God and being a Christian, not just because we want to be right (and that goes for all of us).
Mom2
Yes, you are right on what I was saying. Sorry for the confusion.
Blessings
PJ also wrote:
“Many months ago, my wife and I actually made a prayerful (and difficult) decision to leave the church we were attending . I realized for all the “lessons” we were “taught,” none were rooted in sound doctrine. I can distinctly remember several in which the pastor didn’t even have his Bible open (or any biblical references, for that matter). The point is that we need to continue to grow as Christians, and doctrine is how we do that. How can you convince somebody to believe in something when you don’t know why to believe it yourself? Far too many people (and entire churches, like my former)shape the Bible to fit THEIR doctrine or views.”
That must have been a difficult decision, but I think a sound one. I wish more were concerned with sound doctrined, as opposed to trivial matters that so many put their hopes on when finding a church. Hope you found one.
Blessings
This really scares me:
“And I stand with my puny fist up, and shaking it in God’s face, DEMANDING that God explain God’s self!”
(I’ve read a lot of alarming things here recently, but this sends shivers down my spine. It explains a good deal on this thread and some other recent ones.)
God does explain Himself. The Bible is His testimony to us.
Personally, I’d start with Romans, then Genesis, then go to John. Ephesisans is a blessing, too.
Hi Kristine. Have you seen “The Apostle”? GREAT movie. Sonny had just such a fit in that movie.
I stayed away today to let my blood pressure go down.
PJ was right, as far as I’m concerned: “it’s because everyone is so passionate about God and being a Christian …”
Neil, and after this I take leave of this thread. ‘Cause I’m just tired.
Every time you or anyone else refers to the Bible, as we know it, or even the vaunted “original manuscripts,” as “the Word of God,” you have reduced the “Word of God” to a thing. So, my answer to this — “Got a source for those? Were they a special revelation from God? Are you adding to Scripture?” — is 1., Yes, my mind and standard definitions of “written,” 2., no, I’ve never claimed personal special revelation and I don’t appreciate the snide tone of the question, and 3., no, I am not adding anything to Scripture and don’t know how you could think I was.
And, I’m gone (I mean from this thread.) Peace on y’all and y’allses’ houses.
Duvall was great in the Apostle.
I take responsibility for the thread getting off track. My apologies. I think we all took a deep breath and are back to (ab)normal now.
Wow! What a thread! And what a load of dren coming from both Dan and ER. Dan loes to hide behind the skirts of “Bearing False Witness Against Me!” and ER can’t give up that pack of “Bibliolatry” smokes.
It’s nice knowing my door’s not the only one they darken.
I will say, however, that you Neil have far more patience than I, these two [plus one other] have sickened me on the whole blogging thing…….. which, I suspect, was Dan’s intent all along.
You’re right on, by the way, on the Importance of Sound Doctrine. Without it, NO ONE has any hope of eternal life. Without God’s word, there would be no knowledge of Christ, no known plan of Salvation. As it is, much of America today– including “the Church” –worship a namby pamby feel-good spate of god-isms, rather the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the most high God. Dan and ER are relevantly indicative of what’s wrong with the Church today. They have forgotten that God also a God of Hate [Proverbs 6:16-19] ….. and yet he is still Holy.
Hi there. Came back only to defend myself from EL’s unprovoked and unwarranted attack.
Hmmm. Looking at that list of things God hates, only one, the last one, is actually a person, the rest being attributes. Since you, EL, obviouslyt don’t consider either Dan or I your brother — as you’ve said explicitly — we certainly can’t be accused of sowing discord among brethren.
So, you were just a jerk to me unprovoked, AND your point was lost. Ma. Maybe you *should* retire from blogdom. You may be past your prime.
I would like to question the notion of attacks. Is it an attack within a discussion of doctrine to express to another that he is wrong? How is that an attack? Certainly some may occasionally get emotional, but for the most part, we are each saying to our opponents, “You are wrong” by merely offering our own opinions against those laid before us. I believe leaving the debate is an acknowledgement, at least for the time being, that one has come to know he is wrong. Leaving perhaps to gather one’s self. Leaving to continually restate one’s wrong opinion at one’s own blog. Leaving for lack of new words to express the same opinion. Steel thyself for the blogosphere lest truth, logic or artful persuasion shake you to the core.
No, sometimes you just get tired.
Sound doctrine vs false doctrine
I was reading on Neil’s 4Simpson’s blog a post entitled “The importance of sound doctrine”. The post is excellent, if you can understand its importance. If an individual is fed a diet of wrongly divided Word or doctrine, that person will live a life reflective that doctrine. The false prophets and teachers who intentionally feed them such poison, will come to no good end. But in the meantime, we have to guard against, warn and expose such things as the scripture commands and following the example of the Apostles before us.
Hi Neil,
Jumping on the bandwagon (and linked to your post) regarding this issue with my latest blogpost Sound Doctrine is Crucial
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