For the Bible tells me so is a pro-gay theology movie shown in liberal churches and elsewhere. I watched the trailers and saw many typically bad arguments, starting with comparisons of their opponents to Hitler. How subtle and tolerant of them. Ironically, while this movie is part of the movement that knows that if you tell a lie often enough that many people will believe it they have the nerve to level that claim at Christians.
Despite the title, it doesn’t appear to attempt any serious analysis of what the Bible says about human sexuality. We get a lot of quotes like this:
For a long time the Bible has been misused to support prejudice, apartheid, segregation, slavery, the 2nd class citizenship of women. Now it is being misused to condemn gay people. It’s an old trick. Fundamentalist Christians have been using it throughout the ages and now they are doing it again.
Sure. Of course, one could have made the opposite claim that the Bible was properly used to reject prejudice, apartheid, segregation, slavery, and the second class treatment of women. This is a transparent ad hominem argument (attacking the person, not the message). Since we appear to agree that the Bible, properly interpreted, is accurate, then why not just do that? Oh yeah, because they lose the argument every time then.
- 100% of the verses addressing homosexual behavior denounce it as sin in the strongest possible terms.
- 100% of the verses referencing God’s ideal for marriage involve one man and one woman.
- 100% of the verses referencing parenting involve moms and dads with unique roles (or at least a set of male and female parents guiding the children).
- 0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to homosexual behavior in a positive or even benign way or even hint at the acceptability of homosexual unions.
More quotes:
There’s nothing wrong with a 5th grade understanding of God as long as you’re in the 5th grade.
Fear does terrible things to a society.
I’m really getting a feel for what this movie is about: Fact-free personal attacks and emotional appeals that prove nothing.
Moses teaches in Leviticus that it is an abomination to eat shrimp.
The funny thing was that in a film allegedly appealing to what the Bible really says, the only mention in the trailers about the Bible was the item about shrimp. It is a reference to the shellfish argument, which is full of holes but is appealing to many because so few bother to read the passages in context. I address the many errors of that argument in Favorite dish of liberal theologians & skeptics: Shellfish.
When any liberal theologian uses an argument like that I consider it to be a concession speech, because you can’t use it without revealing your ignorance of the Bible and/or your deceptiveness. They really tip their hands when they insist that there is something wrong with the Bible. If they are really Christians they should hold the same view of the Old Testament that Jesus did.
Filed under: Bible, Sexuality | Tagged: Bible, For the Bible tells me so, gay, homosexual, religion
From my studies there is neither condemnation nor approbation for homosexual relationships in the Bible; there’s an interesting discourse of the topic on http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibi.htm
It is difficult for me to see what all the fuss is about frankly, but it seems like every christian generation attacks someone or identifies some group whose behaviour is seen as heretical in some way. I guess that’s easier than trying to perfect oneself!
Hi Tracey,
“From my studies there is neither condemnation nor approbation for homosexual relationships in the Bible”
Keep reading
.
The fuss is about a movement that is teaching the opposite of what the Bible says about human sexuality, is destroying churches and denominations, and is trying to force school children as young as 5 to learn about how “normal” this behavior is.
Some of us actually have the ability to address such things at the same time we are working out our salvation . . . sort of like how you took time out of your sanctification process to set me straight, right?
Peace,
Neil
Neil,
you should consider turning your bulleted list into five minimal facts about homosexuality.
Pretty solid and, i love the shellfish post you did. It sets the record straight on the shellfish bit. I know I won’t be caught off guard next time they use it on me…
neil,
good post. i have heard of this movie but have not had an opportunity to view it. it is hard to swallow for some, but the Bible is clear. people have used the bible, wrongly, to support ungodly things all through the ages. but in closer inspection, one can see that the bible elevated women and slaves to the same level as free men. this was unheard of in the time of Jesus. just because slavery is mentioned in the Bible does not mean it condones it. just because it says women should submit to church leaders and her husband, does not mean they are a lesser person. we must be careful not to add to the meaning to fit our own agendas.
kw
Thanks, kw and Edgar. You’d be surprised how often they use that shellfish argument.
Thanks for posting on this lively topic. I’m often surprised that these issues are so devisive among God’s people. The Bible cannot possibly be more clear on this issue, yet the Church often struggles to resist wordly wisdom–calling evil good and good evil.
The Bible is an instruction manual for God’s people, i.e. true Christians. It is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path. It shows the world Truth.
And while we as a free society must grapple with the proper role of Truth to be reflected in our culture, law and public policy, the sinful homosexual lifestyle is clearly forbidden among God’s people and His Church.
“There’s nothing wrong with a 5th grade understanding of God as long as you’re in the 5th grade.”
Calling something a “5th grade understanding” is so 7th grade of them. What a poor attempt at an insult. I also have to wonder, why 5th grade? Is there a 4th, 6th, or 7th grade understanding of God?
Did the link I sent you yesterday inspire this?
No, I saw this on another thread, but your link got me fired up as well.
“Calling something a “5th grade understanding” is so 7th grade of them.”
Ha! If Tammi was still doing the CoW (Comment of the Week), you’d be my winner.
“t is difficult for me to see what all the fuss is about frankly, but it seems like every christian generation attacks someone or identifies some group whose behaviour is seen as heretical in some way. I guess that’s easier than trying to perfect oneself!”
Yeah, Paul, Peter, James, and John never tried to identify heretical groups.
I just had the shellfish argument thrown at me in a recent comment at my blog. One of my very first posts dealt with this issue as I pasted a very good explanation for why some Levitical law still applies and others don’t. I’ve reminded my readers of this so often, I’m beginning to assume that those who support the agenda (who still claim there is no agenda) never take the time to really read and consider the opposing argument. All that concerns them is being left to pretend and making us join in the pretense.
Neil,
As usual – concise, to the point, and very useful! Thanks!
I guess that’s easier than trying to perfect oneself!
No Ms. Tracy, it’s easier to make up your own Truth, rely on your own wisdom, and make yourself a little god, than it is to submit to His word you so readily dismiss and corrupt. Tolerance has indeed become the new post modern god – courtesy of the prince of lies.
Another thing about the whole “God hates shrimp!!” thing: Even though I have read that post at least three times before, something finally jumped off the screen and hit me right between my beady little eyes:
Leviticus 11:10 says that shellfish “are an abomination unto you.” Now, I haven’t read through all 8000 comments, but has anyone considered this? That if God had meant to equate eating shrimp with homosexuality, He would have said “all the living creatures that are in the waters, they are an abomination unto ME“?
Basically He was saying “Homosexuality is an abomination to Me” and that “Shellfish is an abomination to you.” A subtle difference, and one the skeptic would not take the time to pick up on.
Fourpointer,
Wow. I never noticed that before either. That’s a great point.
Fourpointer – great observation!
Yep. Even a plain reading of the passages shows that the homosexual behavior is considered detestable to God, whereas the shellfish are to be detestable to the Israelites because it made them ceremonially unclean. Those are key differences. Being detestable to God is quite a bit different than being detestable to a person.
One thing I really enjoyed about diving in deeper to this debate is just how robust the arguments against the theologically liberal view are. The problem is that you need to be dealing with someone with a reasonable attention span and one who is really seeking the truth.
ER, Alan and Geoffrey,
Thanks for making my day. I’ve been laughing on and off since clicking on the incoming link from Geoffrey’s post. Wow, what an obsession! But I must say I am encouraged. It is a best case scenario: You are reading your “enemy’s” writings here and I don’t have to waste time with your comments.
ER, you are seriously mistaken about me saying I would edit your comments. What I said in my last email was this (go check for yourself): “I’ll just moderate you and approve what I feel like. I just wanted to give you fair warning.” That was after I had said, “I let you have the last word, but please don’t comment again. Nothing personal, but I’m tired of having the same conversation over and over. It’s all been said. We’re both wasting our time, and we both have better things to do. Feel free to criticize me all you like from your blog.” Moderation doesn’t mean banned completely. It just means that each comment is approved in whole before posting or deleted. ER, you’re a nice guy and probably a great neighbor and friend. I miss (some of) your comments and sense of humor. I wish you well.
Alan, just for the record, you weren’t banned for being gay, or liberal, or a phony (again, I love it when a guy who blogs on the joys of gay camping and hanging out with lots of naked guys in a pool – including his “husband” – likes to pose as an orthodox Christian. I mean, pro-gay theology is bad enough but even if you bought those lies you couldn’t justify that kind of behavior. And don’t deny it and say I’m lying. I zinged you on that back in the Wesley Blog days and you came back with a lame “don’t believe everything you read on the Internet” line. Sure. I do believe what you wrote on your own blog.). I knew all those traits before. I just got tired of your endless nit-picking. It sucks the fun out of blogging. And you saying I’m obsessed with gays is comical. What a pathetic diversion. Just because I blog on the most divisive issue in the church and a huge issue in politics and education doesn’t mean I’m obsessed. And even if I was obsessed it wouldn’t mean my views are incorrect. But you knew that, of course. By that definition I’m obsessed with pro-life, theology, evangelism, etc., and if you look at where I spend my time I’m much more obsessed with my wife, my kids, prison ministry, CareNet, church, Bible study, mission trips, giving, prayer, accountabilty groups, guitar, etc.
Wow, I’m really an obsessive guy! Thanks for the free diagnosis.
Geoffrey, your bits typically self-destruct with po-mo reasoning. I’ve found it is easiest to let you do your own refutations.
Seriously, I pray that you guys see the light someday and repent of your pagan belief systems. In the mean time, keep reading here! And gossip all you like about me at your places.
Despite the title, it doesn’t appear to attempt any serious analysis of what the Bible says about human sexuality.
Well, I reckon one would have to actually watch the movie in order to know something about it, wouldn’t one?
Neil said: I viewed the trailer twice, and some parts more than that to ensure I captured the quotes accurately. Every section of the trailer was a logical fallacy, bad exegesis or a plain old lie. There wasn’t a single moment that hinted at any sort of balance or orthodox rebuttal.
Trailers are marketing devices used to entice people to watch the whole movie. They typically show some of the most compelling parts. So unless you are going to convince me that the rest of the movie was the opposite of what the trailer showed, I really don’t need to see it. It failed on every level.
Showing that at a church – unless to thoroughly debunk it – would be profoundly un-Christian.
Thank you for your words of truth and reason. Very well said.
Just wondering… do you, personally, think the fires in Northern California have anything to do with God’w srath against gay marriage and sexual perversion? I have 2 posts on the topic. Feel free to visit my blog at http://www.phenomenaltruths.wordpress.com. Hang in there with all the criticism. You make a lot of sense.
Andrea,
That’s a really loaded question which brings about all sorts of nasty responses if answered. As you are probably aware, people have been ridiculed for the crime of publicly speculating in that manner. Some suggest that we can’t know enough about God to suppose such a thing, which of course suggests they think they know enough to oppose the idea. Or, it will be twisted into, “Neil believes God’s punishing gays with fires in California.” if Neil should dare submit the possibility that He would.
I, on the other hand, don’t much care and am willing to admit that I do indeed believe it’s possible, but of course cannot have any way to know for sure. Even the most liberal, pro-homosexual “Christian” should know that all things are possible with the Lord. Why wouldn’t this be?
Hi Andrea – I’ll have to check out your posts, but I generally don’t speculate on such things. It is possible, but if God really wants us to know something He’ll be pretty clear. But He does have endless reasons for removing any blessings from this country, including the rampant apostate Christianity. I thank him for his grace and mercy regularly.
Oh!! Thanks for writing this one!
Perhaps the guys who made this movie haven’t heard a thing about Sodom… Not from the bible of course…
I just cannot imagine a church showing such a movie…
There is nothing liberal about following the word of God… Its All or Nothing…
“There’s nothing wrong with a 5th grade understanding of God as long as you’re in the 5th grade.”
Matthew 18:3
“And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”
So maybe having a 5th grade understanding isn’t so bad. Sometimes I think I was a better theologian when I was in 5th grade.
Sorry, late to the show.
Neil–I disagree with your dismissal of the film without actually seeing it. Having viewed it myself, (and gasp! in a church!), I have absolutely no doubt that it will not change your viewpoint in any way, shape, or form. In fact, it may even solidify your understanding that much more. The overall purpose of the film really isn’t about what the bible says and doesn’t say, etc., and of course it isn’t balanced (I’m not sure why anyone would expect it to be). What it does do well is look at how families have dealt with one of their children coming out. That really is the point of the film. It’s dealing with the lived reality of many parents, who are (for the most part) faithful christians, of homosexuals and how they respond. I do urge people to actually see it before they absolutely reject it wholeheartedly. In some cases it is entirely appropriate to launch attacks from afar or choose to condemn an item without examining it (for instance, I have no problem telling others watching porn is not healthy for the mind, body, or soul, and I don’t need to see it to be convinced of my viewpoint). However, I think this is a case which you may actually be surprised by some of the personal stories the film portrays.
Blessings,
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
Thanks for the input. I always appreciate your insights.
“What it does do well is look at how families have dealt with one of their children coming out.”
So we appear to agree that the film has nothing to do with what the Bible says. And the only part they do mention is completely false (unless, that is, you find the shellfish/polyester arguments compelling – which, by the way, they mentioned in every trailer).
If they had marketed it as you described the content, I might not have had an issue with that. I think the church could do a much better job of coaching people how to deal with folks engaged in this sinful and addictive behavior. Those are real problems that are often ignored because people are afraid to talk about them. I think this topic and abortion need to be talked about more, in the sense of how do you share the truth in love with people.
But are you telling me that the film gave parents and friends tips on how to lovingly educate gay people on the physical, emotional and spiritual destructiveness of the behavior? Or did it tell them to affirm them in their choices? If it told them to love them but not affirm the choices, that would have been fine. I’m skeptical, though. And I know that none of that came through in the trailer. All that the Gephart piece had was the “born that way” deception.
After reading your analysis and reconsidering the trailers, I’m more convinced than ever at their disingeneuousness.
Think about it: If the real purpose was how to deal with children coming out, then why does the trailer focus on demonizing anyone who would oppose them? Yeah, we just have a 5th grade understanding of God (I’ll be glad to debate that fellow on the Bible anytime, anywhere). Yeah, we’re just like Hitler – we tell the same lies over and over. Yeah, we’ve just been using the Bible to support prejudice, apartheid, segregation, slavery, the 2nd class citizenship of women and now gay-bashing. Yeah, no one should trust the Bible – not even Christians – especially when it says God was against shellfish and polyester. And so on. I can really see how I missed the part about it being how to successfully deal with your kids coming out.
Unless the trailer showed two minutes of footage that wasn’t in the film, then I still think the whole enterprise is disingenuous.
Neil–
As you know trailers serve as enticement to get people to watch and are not the actual films themselves. I’m not saying the film doesn’t have its issues (for instance the filmmakers give voice to Soulforce, an organization I am not a big fan of, as well as make some iffy leaps with its ideas of interpretation). The film has a particular point of view and they stick to it. I’m not sure what exactly your problem is with that. You have an understanding that runs counter to the film itself, and that’s fine. I understand your viewpoint and simply have come to a different understanding than you. But my main issue isn’t that you object, but rather you devote the post to making judgments what the film says without actually seeing it. Does it go over the top? Of course it does at times. The film doesn’t say,as I recall, that you shouldn’t trust the Bible. It suggests a different framework for interpretation which you vehemently disagree with. But I do know from experience that families who accept their gay children are sometimes demonized horrendously. I’ve been witness to it far too many times. And btw, there is a family in the film that loves their child but does not affirm her choice.
Just a few thoughts after a long morning of worship,
blessings,
Jeff
I think the underlying question of these last few posts is one that has yet to be answered: Have you SEEN the film?
It is very hard for me to sit here and be OK with you critiquing a film you have yet to see yourself. I also find it difficult to digest these blanketed statements about the film having nothing to do with the Bible, when it very clearly addresses issues of Biblical literalism AND contextual, historical, and language contexts about the big “homosexuality is a sin” verses (Genesis 19, Leviticus 18, Romans 1). And they’re not just asking some “Joe Blow” on the street in Dallas; they’re talking to bishops, priests, pastors (one of which is a Baptist), teachers, professors, and EXPERTS in their fields. But again, you wouldn’t be aware of what the film really says about these verses or who says it because you have not watched it.
On the issue of trusting the Bible: the film does NOT in any way say that one should not trust the Bible. It simply and honestly states that reading the Bible at face value without considering the cultural, historical, and language contexts and THEN using that reading that you have (i.e. the fifth grade understanding) to propagate hate, homophobia, and the lies of reparative therapy is wrong. So I guess in a since you feel that the film would be attacking you because it is asking people to sit down and read the Bible and understand it; not be Biblical literalists and use their misunderstanding to bring disgrace to the name of God.
I’m sure I’ll get blasted for this reply. But that was just my opinion coming from one of your favorite types of people I guess (you know, the young/gay/liberal/hippie Christian) who has watched this film twice now and recommended it to all of their friends.
One final thought: “Jesus LOVES ME, this I KNOW … FOR THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO!” Quit teaching it to your kids and Sunday School classes if you don’t mean it.
Tyler and Jeff P.,
I think you have a point about how you have to watch the movie before having the best conversation concerning the movie. However, you have to understand that the trailer is dripping with disdain for conservative Christians and anyone who dares believe that homosexuality is wrong. Granted, the trailer is supposed to be sensational, but the website and the trailer should focus on the core issues of translation and interpretation, which they touch on somewhat, and Neil rightly refutes, but it seems like most of the time they talk about how conservative Christians are stupid and/or malicious. How is that supposed to unify the body of Christ? At the very best, it is just repaying evil for evil, or hate for hate. I’m not familiar with all of MLK’s speeches and writings, but it seemed like he focused on love and the principles of Christ, not talking about how stupid or bigoted white people were.
“One final thought: “Jesus LOVES ME, this I KNOW … FOR THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO!” Quit teaching it to your kids and Sunday School classes if you don’t mean it.”
Again, this embodies the attitude of the film in that it provides a false dilemma. 1) You believe homosexuality is okay or 2) you are a hateful and/or stupid bigot that wants gay people to go to hell. It is possible, this seems to trip up many Christian liberals, that it is possible to disagree with someone’s lifestyle but still love them. If you want me to provide dozens of examples where this is possible, let me know.
Hi Tyler,
Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
“One final thought: “Jesus LOVES ME, this I KNOW … FOR THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO!” Quit teaching it to your kids and Sunday School classes if you don’t mean it.”
What I teach to my kids and adult Sunday School classes (and anyone else who cares to listen) is the best balance of grace and truth that I can, using the whole Bible, in context.
Before you accuse me of not meaning “it,” perhaps you could explain what you mean by that so we can ensure we are talking about the same thing. What verses do you use to support that theme? What is the context of those verses and surrounding passages? Why do you use those verses and not the ones about Hell and repenting and believing, for example? Does it mean Jesus loves everyone no matter what? Will He send any of them to Hell? Jesus is love, but He’s a lot more than that.
“I think the underlying question of these last few posts is one that has yet to be answered: Have you SEEN the film?”
The question was answered long ago – in the post, actually. No, I didn’t see the film and didn’t hint that I had. I watched multiple trailers and commented on them. Again, in my experience trailers offer a glimpse of what the movie is to be about. Everything in the trailers was bad exegesis, logical fallacies (mainly ad hominem attacks) and emotionalism.
I know for a fact that the shellfish/shrimp argument the one “expert” referenced in every clips is bad exegesis. One has to be poorly informed and/or disingenuous to use it. I gave many reasons in the link, but one is really all you need: The Hebrew word translated as abomination was different for the shrimp and the homosexual behavior passages. Since you saw it twice, perhaps you can educate me on all the other Biblical arguments it addressed.
“they’re talking to bishops, priests, pastors (one of which is a Baptist), teachers, professors, and EXPERTS in their fields.”
There are pastors on TV. Go check ‘em out and let me know if you think they are experts in their fields. If what they teach doesn’t line up with the Bible then I don’t care what degrees or titles they have. Hey, Bishop Shelby Spong is as pro-gay as can be but he readily concedes that the Bible condemns homosexual behavior. He just thinks the Bible is wrong. Was he in the movie? He is a Bishop, so he must be right, eh?
And how about the whole Nazi thing? Mel implies that 2,000 years of Christianity and most of the Christians in the world today are liars and equivalent to Nazis. Or is he just saying that the early church leaders were all homophobic liars and the church has just been lazy in believing them the last 2,000 years, and we only became enlightened as the western sexual revolution took place and abortion, homosexual behavior, easy divorce, fornication, etc. all became acceptable? What convenient timing for the liberal church – they came to the “accurate” Biblical conclusions right after the pagan world did. And since they did in the last 0.5% of the church’s history, maybe they could be a little more patient while they educate us on the real meaning of the Bible and not just say we’re like Nazis.
“So I guess in a since you feel that the film would be attacking you because it is asking people to sit down and read the Bible and understand it; not be Biblical literalists and use their misunderstanding to bring disgrace to the name of God.”
Are you saying I haven’t read and studied the Bible? Are you saying I am a literalist? Have I misinterpreted the Biblical passages on human sexuality? It would be more charitable to prove out your points before concluding that I’m using my “misunderstanding” to bring disgrace to the name of God.
I am quite familiar with all the pro-gay theology arguments. This site does a good job of fairly characterizing them and responding to them – http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/dallas.html .
By the way, I saw this commentary on an ex-ex-gay blog (i.e., someone who tried to leave the homosexual lifestyle and returned). She is commenting on Mel White, a leading pro-gay theologian and a main speaker in the movie.
Peace to you.
P.S. to Chance – great points.
So, according to Steven Kindle, the liberal “reverend” in the trailer, the main reason we should not read Leviticus 20:13 the way it is written is because two verses prior it says the people of Israel were forbidden from eating shrimp. Boy, strong argument there. Here’s an idea: let’s put ourselves in the shoes of an Israelite at the time the Law of Moses was given, shall we?
OK, imagine I am the fictional Samuel ben-Ezra. I have come out of Egypt with the rest of my family, and we see Moses come down the mountain with the Law. One statement in that Law says that I am not to have sex with another man. Now, there are two ways I can interpret this. One, I can take the modern, post-modern, liberal, emergent, seeker-sensitive view that this doesn’t mean what it says. That I am supposed to look deeper into the words and try and figure out my own, nuanced reading of this command.
Or, I can read it like this: God said I am not to have sex with another man or I will be put to death. Hmm. If I’m Samuel ben-Ezra, I will more than likely take choice #2. Why? Because that’s what it means. Men having sex with men is an abomination. God did not hide some ultra-duplicitous meaning in His words. He said what He meant, and Moses wrote it. That’s all, nothing else. This is a sin, God calls it a sin. So be it.
Paul, in Romans 1, calls homosexual sex “vile passion…that which is unseemly.” Did Paul have some post-modernistic understanding he was trying to convey to his readers in some kind of secret code? No. He wrote what was spoken to him by the Holy Spirit. God told him to tell not only the church at Rome, but also us today, that homosexual sex is a sin. Period, paragraph.
The only reasons these people are taking the Rob Bell-Brian McLaren, “The Bible doesn’t really mean what it says” approach are (a) They want to appear to be much smarter than us hairy-backed, knuckle-dragging, unibrowed fundamentalists; but mostly (b) they want to live their happy little lives not having to hear that they are living in unrepentant sin, and they have an eternal judgment awaiting them. As Jesus said in John 3:19-20, “And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.”
Another thing about the title of the movie, and I hate to be so blunt, but I must be: God does NOT love unrepentant sinners. He has prepared Hell for such people (See Matthew 25:41, 25:46). Psalm 5:5 tells us that God hates all workers of iniquity. Does He only hate the iniquity? No. He hates the workers of it, and if they die in their unrepentant state, they will be the object of God’s eternal hatred. And He will prepare instruments of destruction, and they will be His targets. Psalm 7:11-12—“God is a just judge, and God is angry with the wicked every day. If he does not turn back, He will sharpen His sword; He bends His bow and makes it ready. He also prepares for Himself instruments of death; He makes His arrows into fiery shafts.” So basically, what the Emergent/Postmodern/seeker-sensitive movement (and people like the guy that made this movie) are doing is loving these people right into Hell.
“Another thing about the title of the movie, and I hate to be so blunt, but I must be: God does NOT love unrepentant sinners. He has prepared Hell for such people.”
That’s interesting. I’d like to know more about the original Hebrew of Psalm 5:5. I always had the impression God loved everyone, regardless of their final destination. I’ll have to do some studying. As for me, I suppose I’ll keeping loving gay people but hating their sin.
Chance,
The original Hebrew means “hate.” Every single translation renders it such (The only exception may be “The Message” but thankfully I never wasted my money on one of those, so I can’t say).
And you’re right, we always hear the same spiel–”God hates the sin but loves the sinner.” Now, the thing is, that hatred toward the sinner is only towards those who are unrepentant. If I can find it online, I can direct you to a Paul Washer sermon where he exposits that passage (and the one in Psalm 7 in my comment) about how God’s hatred is directed at sinners.
But yes, we are to “love our neighbor” and sometimes that means telling them the truth if they are headed toward Hell.
’sort of like how you took time out of your sanctification process to set me straight’
this is exactly what I mean. Why be unkind to me?
What if you were the one headed for ‘hell’? Jesus said ‘many who are first will be last’. Why should your interpretation be better than anyone else’s?
Jesus reinterpreted all this old scripture for us just so we could keep the Jewish law yet accept and care about those who did not.
How many of you here are homosexual? Or have friends and relatives who are? Where does all this anger come from, are there not many targets for sinful behaviour or people who seem to require intervention?
‘God does NOT love unrepentant sinners. He has prepared Hell for such people.’
Then we’re all destined for it- the people who are not sorry for their attitudes plus the people who are not sorry for their behaviours.
Christianity has become ‘magic beans’ to a kingdom in the sky; I can’t believe this was the intention of Jesus, what did he say: ‘if you love only them that love you, what good does it do you?’
Writing all this rhetoric about other people’s sin and whether they belong in the kingdom of God is just about making yourself feel superior!
How does it serve God or love or save anyone?
Tracy,
We love people by showing them why they need forgiveness. And make no mistake–before any of us got saved, we were dead in our own sins. What we are trying to do is show people that without christ, and without repentance, there is no salvation. “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries” (Hebrews 10:26-27).
If you love your child, and you see him about to run out into the road, do you just stand idly by and let him? Or do you run yelling and screaming for him, to remove him from the way of danger? Which way shows him you love him?
Do we think we are better than anyone else! God forbid! “Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself” (Philippians 2:3). Many times throughout the New Testament we are exhorted to think of others before ourselves. But we are also told to go forth and speak the truth, to show people how to avoid Hell. Not out of a haughty spirit, but out of a desire to see these people saved for the Kingdom of God.
“‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’ Paul answered, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved’” (Acts 16:30-31). But what does it mean to “Believe?” And in what do we believe? Do we just believe in a set of facts? That God exists? That Jesus died, rose again, and is returning one day? Even the demons believe these things–and it does them no good. Belief must be belief in everything Jesus preached–and that includes His command to “Repent!” Faith without repentance is not faith–it is simply believing in a set of facts.
That was what Jesus taught.
‘without christ, and without repentance, there is no salvation’
without God do you mean, as accessed through the life and teachings of Christ?
Thanks for your kindly explanation Fourpointer.
The Jewish metaphors of Jesus were intended to open the minds of dogmatic men: to enlighten them as to what a personal relationship with God would be like. Like a relationship with a father. And look what they did with that- made God masculine.
What is the only unforgiveable sin for Jesus?
‘He who blasphemes the son of man it will be forgiven him, but he who blasphemes against the holy spirit it will not be forgiven in this life or hereafter’.
Taking one theological interpretation and holding it up above others then using it to mock the spiritual realisation of another human isn’t salvation, isn’t the teachings of Christ.
Respecting everyone means accepting them- even when their behaviour may be judged. That was why Jesus went about with the publicans and public sinners- to make his point about loving all, and that the least-seeming people might be the most worthy to God.
What did Jesus say when he said ‘repent’?
‘metanoeo’ is the Greek transliteration:
change your mind.
If anyone is without sin, let them cast the first stone.
Christians from some movements too long have acted as though they alone are God’s elite, the movie merely explores that for the people who have decided that there needs to be some changed mind about dogma and the interpretation of scripture, when it so often is spreading hate more than love.
‘If they are really Christians they should hold the same view of the Old Testament that Jesus did.’
Which was?
‘Blessed they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.’
Anyone who persecutes another-even with the aim of saving them or serving God-blesses them and condemns himself.
We none of us have a monopoly on God or righteousness.
“If anyone is without sin, let them cast the first stone.”
Hi Tracy – I’m familiar with that passage and its context. How did you mean to apply it here? Do you think Jesus meant that we should never judge? That would be impossible to reconcile with other passages on judgment. He was talking about literally not stoning a person to death, something no one is suggesting here. He was outwitting the Pharisees once again, who were trying to trap him.
BTW, that passage may not be part of the original writing of John.
“‘If they are really Christians they should hold the same view of the Old Testament that Jesus did.’
Which was?”
He supported every last letter of it. He quoted the most controversial parts without blushing – Adam and Eve, Sodom & Gomorrah, Jonah and Noah. It isn’t surprising, I suppose, since He was the author.
“Anyone who persecutes another-even with the aim of saving them or serving God-blesses them and condemns himself.
We none of us have a monopoly on God or righteousness.”
I don’t necessarily disagree, but that wasn’t being done here either.
For what it’s worth, I just now saw this because I don’t darken this door very often anymore:
ER, you are seriously mistaken about me saying I would edit your comments. What I said in my last email was this (go check for yourself): “I’ll just moderate you and approve what I feel like. I just wanted to give you fair warning.”
OK. I took “approve what I feel like” to mean “edit as I see fit. It can sure be read that way, and that’s how I read it.
Not that it matters.
No problem. On WordPress “moderate” is simply approving or not approving. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
Peace,
Neil
‘Do you think Jesus meant that we should never judge? ‘
the book of John is as you say considered less accurate than the synoptic texts, though in truth we have nothing but a shadow of Jesus’ teachings in any writing- I’m not sure even the people who heard them directly understood them.
I think of this personally as a God-thing that we are meant to use these parables and stories to sift ourselves spiritually, whatever their source: all creativity is from God after all.
Should we judge? It depends on the meaning of ‘judge’. We must be discerning and set boundaries for our own behaviour certainly.
But the phrase in John 8 ‘Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.’ is a wide concept of censure or rebuke- which is exactly what I feel the original post does do on the topic homosexuality and those people who don’t see it as sinful- assume they are wrong and to be judged.
Jesus goes on to say if he did judge it would also be the judgement of God.
So basically he is saying that though he feels he does have authority- still he does not judge.
I believe he is urging people to put aside the worldly argument, to seek spiritual freedom.
“the book of John is as you say considered less accurate than the synoptic texts”
I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear. The original writings of John were equally as inspired and inerrant as the synoptics. I’m just talking about the specific passage about the woman caught in adultery. Most Bibles note that the earliest manuscripts do not contain that section.
“though in truth we have nothing but a shadow of Jesus’ teachings in any writing- I’m not sure even the people who heard them directly understood them.”
They may not have understood them, but Christians know that the Bible is the inspired word of God and that the original writings turned out exactly as He wanted it to.
Tracy,
In light of your comments, let me ask you this: can a person continue in a sinful lifestyle–I mean as a regular, unflinching, willful pattern, as opposed to the one who stumbles from time to time–can a person LIVE that lifestyle, continually, and still be saved? Whether it be homosexuality, adultery, fornication, idolatry, etc? No matter what the sin, can a person display that as a pattern of life and still be saved?
‘Most Bibles note that the earliest manuscripts do not contain that section.’ ‘the original writings turned out exactly as He wanted it to.’
what is included or not included in the Bible has been the topic of much research and discourse. It is cultural, personal, linguistic and as you say a reflection of the spiritual.
‘can a person display that as a pattern of life and still be saved?’
homosexuality is not necessarily sin, nor is sex, and almost all religion quickly becomes idolatry.
Who is sinless, that’s what Jesus says in that passage, anamartetos?
I don’t believe in the concept ’saved’ as a magic formula ensuring God won’t punish us; that’s a simplistic misunderstanding of the nature of existence and suffering.
Any one of us can step into God’s presence at any time if we choose to do so, through the act of prayer/mindfulness/meditation.
It’s impossible not to sin here and there, but we are arrogant and think ‘my sin is lesser than another’s…’ which misses the point of all these parables.
The teachings of Jesus Christ are very difficult to live without commitment to self-sacrifice; such as giving up our need to control and circumscribe others. Each must perfect themselves, with help from others.
‘Bear one another’s burdens’. Every time a group is excluded or judged harshly it doesn’t lead to more holiness- it leads to cruelty and the worst of human evils.
“homosexuality is not necessarily sin, nor is sex .
…
I don’t believe in the concept ’saved’ as a magic formula ensuring God won’t punish us; ”
Interesting opinions. Un-biblical and non-Christian, but interesting. The Bible couldn’t be more clear about sex being for a one man, one woman union.
The Bible is also clear about salvation and why Jesus came: To save lost sinners. Telling people they aren’t sinning when they really are gets in the way of that.
Tracy,
I’m sure you’ve been confronted with Romans 1:27 at one point or another–”Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.” The words written by the Apostle Paul, spoken to him by the Holy Spirit, tell us that men having sex with men is shameful. In 1st Corinthians 6:9 (another passage I’m sure you’re familiar with) it is lumped together with stealing, idolatry, extortion and coveting. So does that mean that out of all 10 of those sinful acts listed in 1 Cor 6:9-10, that homosexuality is OK now, but the other 9 aren’t?
I get the sense, from your comments, that you are a Universalist. That their is no Hell, and that every single person will go to Heaven (if you indeed believe there is a Heaven). Espescially this one: Any one of us can step into God’s presence at any time if we choose to do so, through the act of prayer/mindfulness/meditation. When, in fact, the Psalms tell us differently–”If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me” (Psalm 66:18).
Another thing I have noticed is you like to quote the verses you think say that we cannot know what sin is, that God doesn’t care about sin, etc. But what do you think about verses that DO talk about sin? Do we throw them out because we don’t like them? What about verses and passages that talk about Hell? Or are those merely symbolic?
Who is not one ( or more ) of that list, fourpointer? That must be a very righteous person.
Yes, if there is heaven all will be there, of that I am utterly convinced, though I suspect we really misunderstand what Christ meant of the kingdom to come, and that it is more metaphor, and that we create it here. Of our spiritual selves I know nothing more than I believe we are spiritual beings foremost.
Psalm 66 does not contradict anything I say, in fact it acknowledges it: I jumped into this discussion because of the iniquity inherent in labelling and mocking others!
Is Hell symbolic? well, the Greeks and Romans believed in an underworld ( and the Greek heaven is ouranos, or Uranus ) The word Jesus uses ‘gehenna’ was the burning pit of refuse outside the city of Jerusalem; that is literal.
‘The Bible is also clear about salvation and why Jesus came: To save lost sinners. Telling people they aren’t sinning when they really are gets in the way of that.’
all people sin. Stop naming another’s behaviours as greater sin than your own, and show understanding and compassion to all.
In joining your discussion I am mindful of what Jesus said- I come not to take away the law but to add to it. If your laws are good then they will always include more good.
The persecution alluded to in the movie is what happens when people hate, fear condemn or exclude each other. It is wrong to call me unChristian or unBiblical in the same way…if I were either I wouldn’t be bothering to have this discussion would I. I would have assumed your mindshere are closed and we have nothing to teach each other- which is not true.
“Stop naming another’s behaviours as greater sin than your own, and show understanding and compassion to all.”
Please show me one case where I’ve done this. I never said homosexual behavior was a worse sin than other things, just that it is a sin. You are the one claiming that it is not a sin and that the real sin is calling it sin. I’m very, very confident that the Bible supports my view and that yours is in conflict with it.
You are the one naming other behaviors as greater sins than your own. You make the false claim that making judgments is the only “sin” worth criticizing, though you repeatedly fail to see the irony and hypocrisy in that.
You (mis)quote Jesus when it suits you but ignore so much of the Bible. Keep reading what Jesus says about Hell and judgment. To say that all go to Heaven is a profoundly un-biblical statement. If that is true, why share the Gospel at all?
Yes, if there is heaven all will be there, of that I am utterly convinced, though I suspect we really misunderstand what Christ meant of the kingdom to come, and that it is more metaphor, and that we create it here. Of our spiritual selves I know nothing more than I believe we are spiritual beings foremost.
Psalm 66 does not contradict anything I say, in fact it acknowledges it: I jumped into this discussion because of the iniquity inherent in labelling and mocking others!
Tracy, I assure you there is a Heaven. But not everyone will be there. And not “just because” they were gay, or because they were extorioners, or they were idolaters. But because they were sinners. Just like the person down the street who is a “good person”–but has never received forgiveness.
Just like I was before I got saved. And I am thankful I did not get caught up in one of those churches that spend all their time “loving” these people right into Hell. I needed forgiveness just as badly as Adolf Hitler–but if you would have asked me, I was saved all the while I was drinking, fooling around, watching pornography, and involving myself in some of the most wicked kinds of sin. But I would have told you I was saved because I didn’t ever do anything “too awful bad.”
But here’s the thing–we are all sinners. That’s just how we’re born. And unless we trust in the saving blood of Christ as the payment God demands for our sin–the 3 Billion dollar debt we owed Him because of our sins–and unless we repent of those sins, we will die, stand before Christ, and be sent to eternal Hell. I am not “labelling and mocking” others, as you so often do when you judge me. I am trying to show people the truth. Call it hate, call it what you will–I really don’t care what you call it. Sin is sin, and unless it is forgiven by God, then it will lead to eternal damnation.
Please show me one case where I’ve done this.
revealing your ignorance of the Bible and/or your deceptiveness.’ ‘ the movement that knows that if you tell a lie often enough that many people will believe it they have the nerve to level that claim at Christians.’ ‘ If they are really Christians’ ‘You make the false claim’
‘You are the one claiming that it is not a sin and that the real sin is calling it sin.’
I am saying that what is sin or sinful isn’t as clear as checking off boxes on a list. But no, just because a certain mention of homosexuality calls a behaviour sinful, no that doesn’t make it so. There are some mistakes in the scripture that got there because the people who wrote it down were convinced they must preserve their way of life, that their laws must be right.
As someone else said that they are there means we are supposed to learn from them- but the lesson isn’t necessarily ‘oh they must be right then’. As the movie points out with Leviticus codes.
Jesus does not mention homosexuality at all, it clearly wasn’t important to him.
‘If that is true, why share the Gospel at all?’
why share the Gospel? Because followers of Jesus were commanded by him to. Because when it is used thoughtfully and spiritually the healing love Christ wanted to bring to our world shines through it. Because it is only through you having your opinion and me having mine, you having your religion and me having mine, you having your conviction and me having mine- yet both of us finding a way to understand, acknowledge and accept each other- that Christian love is possible.
‘Just like the person down the street who is a “good person”–but has never received forgiveness.’
every single one of us will receive forgiveness if we require it. Jesus said the righteous have no need of him, he taught that God was accessible to every single one of us, we do not have to belong to a special group or have religious words interpreted for us or use spiritual intermediaries or repetitious prayers.
The concept of ’saved’ has become a cult, an exclusive club- to beat others down with and make ourselves feel superior.
You must believe what you are called to from your relationship with the spirit- and clearly there is a reason for there being many faiths and paths to God.
But you being right and me being wrong- or vice versa- makes no real spiritual sense. There is just your calling and my calling, and when we each can hear the other- we can all hear God.
What would it take to convince you that something is sinful? You took Matthew 7:1 out of context and didn’t even read the next 4 verses and determined that judging was sinful. How about if 100% of the verses referencing homosexual behavior denounce it in the strongest possible terms? How about if 0% of the verses mention it in a positive or even benign way? How about if 100% of the verses referencing God’s plan for marriage involve one man and one woman?
That’s a rather bold claim. Will you please provide some examples? Jesus said that He agreed with every last mark of the law and the prophets. We know from the Dead Sea Scrolls that pre-date his time on earth that the Old Testament hasn’t changed. What evidence do you have to support your claim that there was a vast conspiracy to add the prohibitions against homosexuality?
How about the other prohibitions in Leviticus 18, for example. Were the ones against bestiality, incest and child sacrifice added? Why did you just happen to determine that the admonitions against homosexual behavior in the Bible are wrong just as the culture is shifting to approve that behavior?
Do a little word search in the Bible and you’ll discover that you are mistaken. The concept of salvation is throughout. You appear to be making up your own religion. You take Bible verses out of context when they support your view. You completely ignore those that don’t support it.
Christians call Jesus our Savior for a reason. Saviors save people from something. In this case, we are saved from the wrath of God and an eternity in Hell if we trust in Jesus.
Yes, there is clearly a reason. Satan. He is the father of lies, according to Jesus – the Jesus you claim to follow. The New Testament teaches 100 times that Jesus is the only way to salvation. Not Mohammad, not Vishnu, not Buddha, not yourself. Ignore that if you like, but please don’t confuse people and label your views as Christian.
I was reading Tracy replies and they make me very sad. Tracy, you seem like a nice person who just would never want to accept that homosexuality is wrong. I would reach you if I could! I don’t know if you are open to reading a few verses, but I found a few.
~ 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ~
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
~ 1 Corinthians 6: 18-20 ~
Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.
~ Revelation 21:6-8 ~
He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
~ Galatians 5:19-22 ~
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love….
——————————————————————–
I pray you will be able to accept the truth.
Matthew 7: yes, I know it well.
‘Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.’
‘there was a vast conspiracy to add the prohibitions against homosexuality?’
I don’t believe in conspiracy so much as people behave as people: we don’t continue to look at wider interpretations of our wisdom once we have one level of understanding on them. With Christ we should- he said that his information was layered and in parable for that reason, so that each may take from it what they are currently capable.
It’s unacceptable to believe that we are now enlightened and better than others though: ‘many who are first shall be last’.
The Bible also says that women are unequal to men, should not serve in Temple, it justifies many violent acts including rape, and was written down in an era when slavery was still accepted as a social norm.
Jesus was Jewish, it is very significant that he not destroyed the law as he said he added to it. By making loving kindness the highest priority: ‘Love God above all things and your neighbour as yourself’. You can’t do that through condemnation and judgement.
Because of Jesus any of us can have a personal relationship with God, by following his guidance.
‘I pray you will be able to accept the truth.’
likewise. Though none of us has absolute truth- it is a fragment of a truth we cannot comprehend we each hold, we ’see through a glass darkly’!
‘please don’t confuse people and label your views as Christian.’
Do I confuse you? I don’t intend to. I write that we are meant to accept and love everyone.
Including Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus- however other people have been spiritually called.
If God called me to another faith I would be of that faith.
The only unforgiveable sin to Christ is blaspheming the holy spirit.
that is the meaning of his not taking away from the law- or any law for that matter. A person can be any religion and follow Christ, or be a christian and not.
“You can’t do that through condemnation and judgement.”
This is a false argument. Once again you judge us for judging. You are the only one here being hypocritical. We are judging based on what the Bible says: Homosexual behavior is a sin. And we aren’t judging their souls, just that the behavior is immoral in God’s sight.
“Because of Jesus any of us can have a personal relationship with God, by following his guidance.”
Actually, it is by putting our faith in Jesus, not by following his rules – that is, unless you are claiming to follow his rules perfectly. He set the unbelievably high standard of perfection. When we see how short we fall of that we should realize our need for a Savior. You make it sound like if we just do the good works Jesus recommended that we’ll be right with God. That is not what the book says.
“Including Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus- however other people have been spiritually called.
If God called me to another faith I would be of that faith.
The only unforgiveable sin to Christ is blaspheming the holy spirit.”
Tracey, I think you are confusing a couple things. God would not and could not call you to another faith. He was quite clear that those have false gods. Jesus is the only way to salvation.
Yes, that is the only unforgivable sin, but are you implying that all other sins are automatically forgiven? It is only through faith in Jesus that we are forgiven and saved.
“that is the meaning of his not taking away from the law- or any law for that matter. A person can be any religion and follow Christ, or be a christian and not.”
I find that very confusing. Authentic Christians are those that trust in him and him only.
Hi Tracy,
You are confused as to what the Bible teaches. As far as men and women go, we can have different roles and still be “equal” regarding our worth and value. God made men unable to carry a child in the womb, but that does not make men better or worse than women. As women, we are more susceptible, perhaps, to deception. We do not have the strength and stamina that men do. Notice that men running a race will have faster times than the women. God values all people.
Loving people is indeed a priority, but part of loving is correction. Speaking the truth in love. For example, if my child is unwilling to share his toys, I will correct him because otherwise he will have no friends, and that would not be loving of me. If my chiild was not paying attention and ran out in front of a car, I would yell in order to warn and save him from the oncoming danger. It is the same with Christianity. Christians are called to warn sinners {of which we are, too} to repent and flee from the coming judgment.
Tracy,
It is obvious that you will continue to deny that sin is sin (where you came up with that “But no, just because a certain mention of homosexuality calls a behaviour sinful, no that doesn’t make it so” idea, I’ll never know. Just because God says something doesn’t mean it’s so? Huh.), all the while making up excuses for your approval of sinful behavior. You will continue to take your Sharpie™ and cross out those parts of the Bible you don’t like, just so you can continue to feel comfortable in your sins.
But you see, people will only feel comfortable while you are in this life. Because one day, when they stand before Christ, they will have to give an account for their life. They will do it at one of two places: The Judgment Seat of Christ, or the Great White Throne. Those who stand at the Judgment Seat (Bema) will be those who received forgiveness for their sins, repented of their sins, and followed Christ in loving God even more than they loved themselves (and especially more than they loved their sins).
Those who stand at the Great White Throne will be those who denied Him, who continued in their sins, and who will be cast into eternal torment. The choice is not mine to make. That’s up to God. But He has shown us who will wind up where.
Hi Fourpointer and All,
One of the most convicting things a pastor ever said to me personally was, “They will never care how much you know until they know how much you care.” It stung, believe me! We need to be careful that we approach those who are misled in love and gentleness, along with respect.
~1 Peter 3:15 ~
…Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect…,
Do you agree?
‘You will continue to take your Sharpie™ and cross out those parts of the Bible you don’t like, just so you can continue to feel comfortable in your sins.’
you’re very interesting Neil, you seem to have set yourself out as some kind of christian guru with this website.
I don’t see you pointing out the other sins and sinners of the world, as you see them or as the Bible does; I see you singling out homosexuality. That will lead to evil.
Yes, there’s lots in the Bible I would not use as a basis for my own values or for following Jesus in my own life. We were always meant to be discerning and exercise our own judgement and prayer!
There’s a sect here in TX who are convinced they should practise polygamy because it says so in the OT.
Down the ages many many people have been as convinced they were right as you seem to be, and their intolerance lead to great suffering for others.
‘part of loving is correction’
yes, which is why I believe was lead to write here; I wanted to point out that not everyone views homosexuals as any more or less sinful than anyone else on this earth, and that I don’t think it is a loving or Christ-like attitude which the original poster showed, in his attempt to save others.
‘We need to be careful that we approach those who are misled in love and gentleness, along with respect.’
and Hallelujah! someone finally gets it…
Love and God Bless to all, my work here is done!
: )
Hi Tracie,
First, I didn’t make the Sharpie comment.
Second, your bit about me singling out homosexuality (or more specifically, homosexual behavior) is inaccurate and irrelevant. I write even more about the problems of abortion.
And I wouldn’t be writing about homosexual behavior if people like you weren’t saying it wasn’t sinful.
“There’s a sect here in TX who are convinced they should practise polygamy because it says so in the OT.”
Yes, people misinterpret the Bible. I don’t see the relevance.
“Down the ages many many people have been as convinced they were right as you seem to be, and their intolerance lead to great suffering for others.”
Please explain why this comment wouldn’t apply to you as well.
“and Hallelujah! someone finally gets it…”
I’m glad you appreciated Andrea’s point, but I’m not sure you caught the underlying message: She is much gentler than me, but we can both see that your views are non-Christian. She knows you have been misled.
Best of luck to you.
Peace,
neil
Neil,
You always makes things so clear, and touch on every important point. Great job!
Andrea,
Yes, we should of course correct people in love. And that is what I have tried to do with Tracy. But as you have been able to see, she will not take correction. She believes her “feelings” and anti-biblical beliefs are more important than what the Word of God says. While I was not trying to be harsh or coarse with her, there are times when you must be very matter-of-fact about things. This was one of those times.
Anyone who doesn’t agree with you or conform to everything you say is the christian life is not a Christian? Do you really mean that? Then there would be no ‘body of Christ’, people have always believed different things right from Jesus’ death and still. Religion is viewed through culture, personality, era, received wisdom and spiritual growth & calling.
I heard a Rosh-hashanah sermon last year where the Rabbi said of course an atheist was still a Jew: everyone was amazed as he turned the story around, and explained he was once an atheist! But we can only grow spiritually in a fertile place, not a hard-hearted rocky outcropping!
I go to Unity Church. I personally could never whole-heartedly subscribe to a set of views where all people are not received and cared about equally, I may seem too into fellings but I do love everyone and don’t expect people to all think, believe or behave the same as me or as each other.
From study and prayer I know I am meant to love people even where I don’t understand or agree with them, and share Jesus’ message as best I can in the way he did- in a way people can receive it.
‘there are times when you must be very matter-of-fact about things.’
Maybe, but the only people Jesus decried were the religious leaders who would lead people from God by doing nothing to lift the burdens they had placed upon them.
It places heavy burdens indeed by denouncing people for homosexuality and abortion and for being of other faith-beliefs, you are asking people to do what you yourselves cannot do here with me- see another point of view and reconsider your position.
I saw a comedian on TV recently, he said ‘when an animal rights activist throws red paint over a person wearing a fur coat I wonder if anyone ever responded with “okay, point taken!” ‘
Sometimes the more strongly we feel about something the more gently it needs to be spoken- or even better, demonstrated.
Jesus oft-used phrase about others taking advice was ‘he that hath ears to hear- let him hear’. He said that people could hear without understanding in the way he shared things- through stories and most of all the example of his love and self-sacrifice.
Fourpointer, with respect, how could you correct me, when you don’t accept me? Why would I believe you and trust you have my interests at heart, especially when you say I can’t be a christian?!
What if I said – well you can’t be either?! Where does that go? Nowhere. No dialogue, no learning from each other, no Spirit!
Jesus said that the righteous have no need of him- his was a healing ministry for the world’s sinful humanity. He knew full well that- and he included himself- all around him were equally sinful, whatever their appearance or status. He urged all to strive for perfection, like God. ‘God alone is good’.
Hi Tracy,
No. That isn’t what any of us said. I’m on record as agreeing with St. Augustine: In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.
Where we differ is in what Jesus’ message was. Other than generalities about loving people I haven’t seen you teach anything like He did. More below.
You are placing a larger burden on homosexuals or other sinners by telling them they aren’t sinning and don’t need a Savior. If you love people you’ll encourage them to avoid sinful, destructive behaviors. You’ll want them to know that while abortions are wrong, forgiveness and healing are possible through Jesus.
I don’t see you considering our point of view and reconsidering your position.
If you want to say I’m not a Christian, then feel free to explain why. I claim to believe in the essentials of the Christian faith and to trust in Jesus as my Lord and Savior. Show me where I disagree with Jesus and I’ll be glad to be corrected. But I’ve studied the whole book quite a bit and I think I’m in pretty solid agreement with him (though I’m still a sinner in need of a Savior 24×7).
Here are some samples from a future post:
Jesus thought we should take the Gospel to the Jews. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.
Jesus thought the appropriate name for him to reference the first person of the Trinity was Father. I agree. Liberal theologians sometimes disagree.
Jesus said to make judgments, but not to judge hypocritically. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree, and say we shouldn’t judge at all.
Jesus taught that there is a real place called Hell and that it will be an awful place to be. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.
Jesus taught that He was God. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.
Jesus believed that Satan was a real being and a force for evil. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.
Jesus taught that He was the only way to salvation. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.
Jesus agreed with the Old Testament, which showed how God punished the Israelites severely and often for following other gods. I agree. Liberal theologians think that other religions and their gods are valid.
Jesus taught that everyone is a sinner in need of him as a Savior. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.
Jesus taught that we should give our money to help the poor. He did not teach that we should ask the government to force others to “give” to our pet causes. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.
Jesus taught that the Old Testament was accurate down to the last letter and mark. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.
Jesus taught that other belief systems were false and was not ashamed to expose them. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.
Jesus taught that we should the Gospel to all nations and to make disciples. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.
Jesus taught that we shouldn’t murder and expanded on that . . . hating like murder, your neighbor is the least likely person you’d expect it to be. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree and are pro-legalized abortion.
Jesus taught that false teachings are dangerous and could send people to Hell. He railed against them. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.
Don’t generalise too much Neil- there is no ‘liberal theologian’ or ‘conservative theologian’; people believe very different things I find, even where they identify with either of these labels. I’ll try to comment on your ideas, but remember though I know a lot about scripture and have an open mind about various interpretations I have 100% belief that God is only good or loving. No God of wrath, destruction or mythology- I only personally believe in the spirit that is God, nor do I know what it is, only my own experiences:
Neil said: Hi Tracy – sorry for inserting comments here, but I’m short on time. I think the items I listed for liberals hold true. I did say “generally,” so I wasn’t implying it was 100%, and you actually prove my points repeatedly below.
If you think God doesn’t have wrath and won’t destroy things then you don’t understand the Bible at all. Yes, He is the epitome of love, but He has perfect justice as well.
‘Jesus thought we should take the Gospel to the Jews. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.’
Jesus was a Jew. He said to preach to Jews first then other nations. I don’t see anywhere he said to start any new religions or to worship him as a God.
Neil said: I’m glad you acknowledge that liberal theologians say that, but wow. Jesus is God. That is a foundation of our faith. Countless Christians have died rather than deny that truth – http://www.whatthebibleteaches.com/wbt_130.htm
‘Jesus thought the appropriate name for him to reference the first person of the Trinity was Father. I agree. Liberal theologians sometimes disagree.’
I believe that Jesus was instructing people they may have a strong personal relationship with God, who he calls Father. I don’t think that means God is human or male.
‘Jesus said to make judgments, but not to judge hypocritically. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree, and say we shouldn’t judge at all.’
A hypocrite was someone who pretended to be another’s faith or values to gain favour or trust; Jesus said we should apply the same judgements to ourselves as others.
Neil said: Right, but you don’t do that. You quote Matthew 7:1 but not the rest. You judge homosexual behavior as not being sinful, and then judge us for saying it is (which is what the Bible says). Each of us makes judgments about whether something is right or not, but you are the only one who judges the other one merely for making a judgment.
‘Jesus taught that there is a real place called Hell and that it will be an awful place to be. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.’
Hades was the Greek Underworld, a mythological place. Gehenna was the burning refuse pit outside Jerusalem where the dead people who weren’t entitled to burial rites were discarded. In Judaism this was a big thing.
Neil said: Thanks for conceding my point that you disagree with Jesus again. We all know about Gehenna. Do you think Jesus was saying people would literally go there? Do you think it is possible that it was a figure of speech to describe an incredibly awful place?
‘Jesus taught that He was God. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree’
Jesus said ‘why do you call me good? Only God is good.’
Neil said: Thanks for conceding my point that you disagree with Jesus. Jesus never said He wasn’t God. That was probably a tongue-in-cheek comment or a statement of the obvious.
Again, you call yourself a Christian and deny the deity of Christ. That is very confusing.
‘Jesus believed that Satan was a real being and a force for evil. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.’
Satan is a metaphor for evil. ‘Demons’ was the way of explaining things which we have different explanations for too now- mental illness& disability. I think our popular images of Satan and hell come more from the fiction of Dante and poets like Milton than the Bible.
Neil said: Once again, thanks for proving that I was right. Yes, popular images come more from fiction than the Bible. That’s a problem. But Jesus was definitely not using him as a metaphor for evil.
‘Jesus taught that He was the only way to salvation. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.’
depends what you mean by the only way. There are many ways to God- but study them and they are the same teachings as Jesusand the same concepts fo love and self-sacrifice.
Neil said: No, you completely miss the point of Christianity and what the Bible teaches. The Old Testament is spectacularly clear that there is one God and one way to him and that He didn’t want false gods to be worshiped. The New Testament teaches one hundred times that faith in the real Jesus is the only way to salvation. If you think doing good deeds will win over God then you are not saved. You need to repent and trust in Jesus. Please consider this seriously.
‘Jesus agreed with the Old Testament, which showed how God punished the Israelites severely and often for following other gods. I agree. Liberal theologians think that other religions and their gods are valid. ‘
Jesus taught that there is but one God. Everyone who experiences God is experiencing the same thing, whatever they name it.
Neil said: No, the God of the Bible is very particularly defined and He made it very clear not to worship other gods.
All religions have some elements of truth, none yet has the full truth. I believe we are all meant to learn from each other and to develop the spirituality in each faith, and lose the human aspects.
Neil said: But you are claiming that as the full truth, and you don’t have a standard to support it.
‘Jesus taught that everyone is a sinner in need of him as a Savior. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree’
I agree. But not in this concept of ’saved’ as some kind of magic ritual which only some people can belong to. Anyone can call on God, anytime. Some of them, most of them historically, will not have used the name of Jesus.
‘Jesus taught that we should give our money to help the poor. He did not teach that we should ask the government to force others to “give” to our pet causes. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.’
Governments exist solely for the administration of a nation. Jesus said ‘give to Caesar what is Caesar’s ‘ and generally disapproved of the church handling any money which was not immediate necessity.
I agree- we are meant to share our wealth.
I also believe unless we do it does not benefit us.
Religion has traditionally been one of the ‘pet causes’ of each nation, so it is good to see a separation of God and state as governments advance, so that people in power cannot manipulate faith to control people. Spiritual power is not to be misused.
‘Jesus taught that the Old Testament was accurate down to the last letter and mark. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.’
Jesus said it would be fulfilled, the law. As it has.
Neil said: Yes, but that wasn’t my point. Theological liberals often dismiss OT teachings but Jesus didn’t. He referenced the most controversial parts – Adam & Eve, Noah, Sodom & Gomorrah and Jonah.
‘Jesus taught that other belief systems were false and was not ashamed to expose them. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.’
Jesus taught that idolatry was wrong, that anything other than a direct relationship with and worship of God was wrong.
Neil said: Right, but that contradicts what you said earlier. It also doesn’t disprove my point.
Even if the idol is Christ or the cross I believe it is wrong to attach superstition to anyone or anything.
‘Jesus taught that we should the Gospel to all nations and to make disciples. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree.’
I agree. When we teach all people that there is the one shared God, how to love God above all things, and each other as we love ourself- that is the kingdom of Christ on earth.
Neil said: That is not the Gospel. When you realize you can’t keep what you described for even 10 minutes then may will lead you to the Gospel.
‘Jesus taught that we shouldn’t murder and expanded on that . . . hating like murder, your neighbor is the least likely person you’d expect it to be. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree and are pro-legalized abortion’
Jesus said when we think evil about someone we commit murder in our hearts….
Abortion is something a person must take up between themselves and God; until we are more clear on unified ethics in our societies I believe we will have to accept it as a fact, though in this era frankly I don’t see why women need be pregnant at all if they choose not to.
Neil said: It is a scientific fact that the unborn are human beings. 2/3 of the states have fetal homicide laws (unless the mother wants the unborn to be destroyed, in which case it is ok). Killing an innocent human being is murder. Abortion is murder. You don’t need to ask God about it, as He has already made it clear that murder is wrong. The good news is that in Jesus people can be forgiven and healed for this sin. But your philosophy withholds that message and simply says they did nothing wrong.
However many christians have strong views about the beginning of human life, and there was an ancient passage in the gnostic texts about women would no longer bear children if they didn’t have to: it’s an old fear and superstition that women must be pregnant maybe?
Remember the women in Bible times were the property of men, Jesus wasn’t happy about this and he urged a man to take one wife and to remain with her. I don’t think anyone was ever meant to be in union unless it was sanctioned by God, what is that old phrase ‘a match made in heaven’. I think it’s about the spiritual love uniting two people and God.
Jesus maybe knew little of abortion, I don’t think it wasa Jewish custom, though it was known in other cultures of the time how to make a woman lose a pregnancy.
Neil said: Jesus is God. He knows all about abortion.
Yes, Jesus did say that marriage was designed for one man and one woman.
Homosexuality he would have known of, it wasforbidden in Judaism and earlier Roman society but practiced in Greek and later Roman society. The emperor Nero ( 37-68 ) married a man as well as a woman. Much of Christ’s teaching developed in response to the increasing hedonism and arrogance in these wealthy societies I am sure.
‘Jesus taught that false teachings are dangerous and could send people to Hell. He railed against them. I agree. Liberal theologians generally disagree’
I agree. Jesus said it wasn’t obvious who was first and last int he kingdom of God, but that it may not be the same who lead here now. He said many will come in his name and lead people astray, as has happened.
I don’t know what i think about that- except that an act of evil done to please or serve God seems blasphemy to me, and to turn the teachings of Jesus away from God and love and healing to fear and insecurity, religion and power- pure Satan.
Neil said: Wow, you sure are judgmental. Go back and read Matthew 7:1
. Seriously, do you have any Bible verses to back up the claim that we are being Satanic? And any explanations as to why you trust those verses and not the rest of the Bible?
Seriously, Tracy, you are probably a wonderful neighbor and friend. But for you to claim to be a Christian mocks the historic definition of the word. You believe the opposite of the essentials of the faith. It mocks the cross, and it mocks the blood of the martyrs. The Unity Church is not Christian.
Your views match up with the essentials of historic Christianity as well as mine line up with Islam. Sure, there are some things in the Koran that I would agree with, but few would take me seriously if I claimed to be Muslim.
Wow, don’t think I like my words editing much Neil; but I will respond to your comments:
‘If you think God doesn’t have wrath and won’t destroy things then you don’t understand the Bible at all. Yes, He is the epitome of love, but He has perfect justice as well.’
I think that the essence of all being is in balance- but that is not a wilful act of destruction. It’s very close to superstition to believ that God will destroy or harm you if you don’t satisfy certain criteria. And then when it doesn’t play out in reality it’s confusing to people. Bad things will always happen to good and faithfully religious people too, that’s the nature of reality,
‘Jesus is God. ‘
Jesus said ‘I am in the father and the father is in me’. We are all the children of God and part of God and all creation.
Jesus never said we were to worship him as a God or part of God though, he was quite clear that the only being to worship was this one God, which he calls Father.
‘Seriously, do you have any Bible verses to back up the claim that we are being Satanic? ‘
who says you are being Satanic? Are you commiting acts of evil to please God? And who is ‘we’? Am I addressing a church group or religious denomination?
What did Jesus say about what is done in his name?
‘This people honours me with words, but their heart is far from me. So in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrinal commandments of men.’
He goes on to say:
‘There is nothing from outside a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those defile the man. If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.’
In ancient times there was the concept of sacrifice to please God, and people did indeed commit atrocities believing that it would please and honour God. Jesus’ sacrifice was to wipe these practices out, an act of great love and SELF-sacrifice.
‘The Unity Church is not Christian.’
down the ages people have said this of many church faiths, I wonder sometimes what it is people truly fear.
‘few would take me seriously if I claimed to be Muslim.’
a Muslim friend fo mine said ‘I am going to be the best Muslim I can- which means sometimes I must move away from outdated practise of my faith’.
It’s the same with any religion Neil, as it affects the world the world values change.
Women and powerless people are no longer accepted as the property of others, hate and violence become increasingly viewed with suspicion and condemnation, and we begin to understand the processes involved in being followers of Jesus- not mockery or exclusion or superstition… but honesty, interfaith and intercultural dialogue and universal love.
As for the blood of the martys people have died for many many versions of Christian belief, you know that.
I mean this in a serious way: Have you ever read all of the Bible? Do you skip over the parts you don’t like? It isn’t superstition that God destroys people. It is fact. You can avoid it by truly trusting in Jesus – but not your made up Jesus. This is just one of the things Jesus said: Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
We are not all children of God – http://4simpsons.wordpress.com/2007/01/03/who-are-the-children-of-god/ . You did not offer anything to refute my point that Jesus is God and that you disagree with that.
Jesus accepted worship from Thomas. He claim He was “I AM.” He said He could forgive. He is the Word who is God (John 1). And on and on. Again, you are proving my point that your views are the opposite of the essentials of Christianity.
How did your friend arrive at the conclusion that the practices were outdated? If they were never in their holy book to begin with, then he really didn’t give anything up. If he claims new revelation from Allah, then he has the burden of proof to defend that.
Tracy, you are a classic Dalmatian Theologian. You think you are inspired to spot the inspired spots of the Bible, and you think God has changed spots and that you know which spots He has changed.
You make up your own god over and over and use the veneer of Christianity to make it appear authoritative.
They typically died for refusing to acknowledge other gods and refusing to say Jesus wasn’t God and the only way to salvation. Your claims to be Christian mock that.
Tracy, you are being very hypocritical. You came to this post to criticize me for pointing out the sin of homosexuality, as if that is a sinful judgment. But it is God’s word that makes it clear. Each of us makes judgments here. You judge that the behavior is not a sin, and I say that God’s word says it is.
You commit serious sins here: Putting yourself in the place of God by changing his word and declassifying the sin of homosexual behavior, then by getting in the way of the salvation of homosexuals by telling them they don’t need to repent. Those are wicked things, and I encourage you to repent.
I think everyone needs to repent of something Neil, I agree with you there!
Well our interpretations of the bible may be somewhat different but I have a question that’s not scriptural- and not miles of typing!- do you believe in interfaith?
Hi Tracy,
Can you define interfaith for me? I’m not sure what you mean by that.
Thanks,
Neil
By interfaith I mean positive interactions between people of different faiths or faith denominations.
For example Interfaith of Greater Houston has several programmes for people of different faiths to serve together or educate each other or worship together.
Hi Tracy,
Thanks for the clarification. That helps.
You might start by reading religious pluralism is intellectually bankrupt. As you can probably tell by the title, I’m not a fan of it. There is a good kind of pluralism whereby we treat people of other faiths with respect and encourage religious freedom. What I rail against is when false Christians or thoroughly confused Christians say that all these religions are valid paths to God.
I have a long track record of treating people of other faiths with gentleness and respect. At work, for example, people know I’m a Christian yet I’ve had fabulous relationships with employees who were Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, atheist, etc. I don’t force anything on them but am open to discussing religious topics. One thing I never do is imply that we could both be right. In fact, I look for opportunities to point out that at least one of us must be wrong.
Educating each other would be fine. We are supposed to go out into the world with our message (i.e., be salt and light, make disciples of all nations, etc.). Kinda hard to do that if you never interact with non-Christians.
But the Bible could not be more clear that Jesus is the only way to salvation, so we should never water that down message. It is also clear that we shouldn’t worship or partner with other religions. This passage is often used to teach that we should only marry Christians (which is true, especially in conjunction with 1 Cor. 7). But it is broader than that. We should not worship or have religious fellowship with non-believers.
Hope that helps, and thanks for asking!
Tracy,
To amplify Niel’s reply, there are many good things that can be accomplished by people of different faiths working together. And there are a number of beliefs that different faith tradition can share. For example people of different faith traditions can agree and work together against abortion, or any number of other worthy causes. However, this doesn’t mitigate the fact that in most significant areas Christianity is in complete opposition to other faiths. So yes, it is possible and producitve ( I do it every day) to serve with people of differeing faith traditions, it does not mean that I (or others) are blind to the differences. Chuck Colson took a lot of flack for doing just what you are talking about.
Wonderfully said, Neil.
I have always felt interfaith was a large part of Jesus’ ministry. He would have been addressing multi-faith crowds in an occupied land.
I guess where the views expressed above differ with my views is that you say that worshipping Jesus ( as a God or part of God ) and being a certain kind of Christian are the only way to God, whereas I don’t believe Jesus ever meant following him to mean a new religion or anything other than using his beliefs, which he knew were the way to godliness.
And that’s where I’d say any other religions can be the same path to God.
What I’d like you to clarify if you will is what exactly do you believe that people have to do ( or think ) in order to be ‘a believer’?
Right. And He would have said He was the only way. He would not have said that Hinduism, Buddhism, your New Age religion or anything else were valid paths to God.
He was 0.000% interfaith in the way you defined it. There are zero records of him preaching alongside another religion or even hinting that they were true.
You continue to miss the whole point of the Bible. Doing good deeds will not get you back to God. They are as filthy rags to him. James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
You keep saying that, but you disagree with the Bible from beginning to end.
To be a believer, they need to repent of their sins and put their faith in the one true Jesus.
Thanks for taking the time to share all this with me.
‘To be a believer, they need to repent of their sins and put their faith in the one true Jesus.’
repent, I agree, as in ‘have a change of heart and mind’; I don’t believe that I have encountered as yet ‘the one true Jesus’ in any of our religions, every single christian faith-place has some flaws and some truths as far as I have seen, also the other religions greatly represent the same values, and as I already said, I believe whatever people are calling it I believe there is only one God.
Do you have a faith denomination?
What do you think is the process, or the processes, by which people arrive at their faith beliefs?
Tracy, I am so encouraged by your honesty and your proclamation that you don’t think you’ve ever encountered the Real Jesus or have ever put your faith in him. That is the very process by which a person is saved. First, a person comes to the very same conclusions you just did! I became a Christian at age 25. You can read about my experience if you are interested, at http://www.phenomenaltruths.wordpress.com.
I’ll be praying for you. Much love to you!
Andrea
Thanks Andrea; I am looking at your website.
I have a very close walk with God, I don’t really see Jesus as God, or part of God though, well not more than anything in creation is; I do respect that other people do.
I guess I could be a ‘Unitarian Universalist Christian’ if I wanted to belong to another denomination, but I’ve always found myself called to serve in many places and to me it doesn’t matter too much so long as people are not offended by this.
At the local Unity Church I get to follow Jesus’ teachings and worship in a very calm peaceful setting for me, it just fits perfectly.
One of my dear friends is Mormon, I go to worship with them sometimes, and I’m a musician so I get to serve with people of many cultures and faiths ( Jewish people yesterday )
I love the beauty in each faith, the way faith often brings out the best in people- yet sometimes despair at the evil it creates too. Maybe all human things must have that balance, I don’t know.
I think at my heart Andrea I don’t believe Jesus envisaged any of these churches as his ministry, but maybe we can only reflect that in a small way, except the small number who will sacrifice themselves wholly to service and prayer.
Your website rejects catholicism, it’s hard to generalise even that word though, for the eastern orthodox church is very spiritually powerful, has retained some of the concept of ‘divine mystery’ which later churches attempt to explain away.
I personally don’t think that ritual would be part of Jesus’ church, he did command us to avoid ‘vain repetitions’ and reject criticisms of Sabbath observance.
That is the beauty actually of going to a new faith and observing a ritual for the first time, or like new because it is done differently than my own custom.
Not sure I understand ‘born again’ or ’saved’; I think life is a process and we are spiritual beings of God whatever we believe.
We renew constantly where our hearts are full of love.
Wow, you provide a lot of information there. Thank you for being so candid. And thank you for checking out my site. It is all about true Christianity. Teaching others the truth is my passion. It’s amazing and sad how easily we can all be led astray unless we make it a point to cling to the truth. We need to be reading the Bible prayerfully daily. But we will not understand it unless we have the Holy Spirit living within us. We have to ask for that, and ask for forgiveness, too.
I am all for seeking and questioning everything. I think that is how we find God. And, he draws us to himself by the power of the Holy Spirit. If we are open to whatever the truth is, and we can be humble enough to accept what God says about us {that we are sinners in need of a Savior}, we will find Jesus and salvation. We cannot know God or walk closely with God unless we accept his Son.
Believing that Jesus is God is vitally important, for we cannot go to heaven otherwise. Did you know that the Bible says only a few people will be saved? Here are some verses on that:
~ Luke 13: 22-30 ~
Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”
He said to them, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
“Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
“But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
“There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”
Andrea, your website and the things you write about are true historical christian religious interpretations, but I fear you are way off-mark with your christian ’saved’ concept.
Luke 13 has Jesus repeating ‘except you repent, you shall all similarly be lost’. Even the tiniest act of malevolence tramples the mustard seed of faith.
The holy spirit comes to everyone, even when they don’t know it. I have seen it manifest in people who don’t believe Jesus is God, and I have seen how it isn’t apparent in all people who do.
I think religious teachings often take people away from their spiritual self, trying to be an intermediary for God isn’t what Jesus taught, he wanted us to have our own direct relationship.
That’s what I believe he meant by ‘I am the way’.
This is the narrow door- so difficult to navigate and stay on the strait path- so easy to become consumed with ourself, and how so many self-absorbed, hateful, peaceless, loveless actions can be done in the name of a man who said ‘whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.’
To love everyone we must have larger empathy than an egotistical notion to control others- that is God’s job.
I was saddened by your disparaging of other named faiths Andrea on the website, what exactly is your own faith denomination? I am sure people will have denounced that too at some time!
As you say many who believe themselves first- and here jesus alludes to the powerful and religious leaders- may well be last, through their own lack of love.
We only get a tiny piece of earthly life here, and then no further chance to undo our place in its history. That is the metaphor of being saved to me, those people who have lived their lives as Jesus commanded, and put right their wrongs, and shown peace and healing whenever they could, and stayed close to the spirit of God.
Hi Tracy,
Thanks for your friendly responses. Sorry it took me so long to reply. It has been a busy few days.
The question is whether people believe the essentials from the Bible. The New Testament teaches roughly 100 times that Jesus is the only way to salvation, so it isn’t like that point is debatable for a Christian (or at least it shouldn’t be). It is also quite clear that Jesus is God.
I have never seen another religion present the “same views” that resemble the Christian faith. All those religions teach that you must do good deeds to win over God, but only Christianity offers grace. Christianity says that there is no way you can be reconciled to God on your own. It is only through faith in Jesus and his sacrifice on your behalf.
I hope and pray you take that step someday, because eternity is a mighty long time. You do not get to decide how God runs his universe.
I attend a Methodist church. I agree with them on the essentials but not all the non-essentials.
God can reach people many ways. Through his word mostly, but also through other people sharing that word, through dreams (I’ve heard many examples of this from Muslim countries, for example), etc.
I agree with some of your feelings but the fact is that you have created a god in your own image. You take snippets of the Bible that you agree with and use them, but you reject the parts you don’t like.
Your “metaphor of being saved” isn’t salvation. It is a system of good works doomed to fail. Oddly, Christians are sometimes accused of being self-righteous (which we may be at times), but at our core we are the ones saying that our righteousness is not enough. We need Jesus’ righteousness. Your religion and others teach that we can be righteous enough on our own.
I’m not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. The context is people believing that those who died in accidents were getting punished from God. Jesus pointed out that repenting and believing was the key. We are all sinners. Just because a building collapsed on someone else instead of you doesn’t mean God likes you better or that you don’t need Jesus.
The context of the NT shows that He meant that repenting and believing in him is the only path to salvation – http://www.4simpsons.com/Jesus%20is%20the%20way.htm
I don’t follow your reasoning. Andrea can speak for herself, but she is extremely gracious on her site. I just see her pointing out the obvious: That if Mormonism is true then Christianity is not, and vice verse. Then she explains why Christianity is true. What is wrong with that? We know that many people denounce Christianity, such as yourself, and we expect it.
I understand, life is hectic. On the gulf coast we are just watching to see where the storm will land.
I was raised Primitive Methodist in England, that’s where a lot of my ideas first came from about equality and respect. Everything in my early religious life radiated out from the Sermon on the Mount, and we were taught that if anything wasn’t love it was something we needed to work on.
We were also very accepting that a faith might take a whole lifetime to develop, or that someone may never totally accept a religion, but the important thing was our personal relationship with God.
Such a good grounding, it’s always stayed with me, very humble simple working people. It was the poor people’s methodism, some of the evangelism was frowned upon by the Wesleys, the eccentric style of American preacher Lorenzo Dow.
Mormonism is part true just as other christianities are part true. None of them seem to make complete sense to me!
I think people should always study and pray and follow their heart- and stay as close to Jesus’ teachings as possible.
Oh my, you are near the hurricane? I will be praying for your safety….
I am not Methodist. Many Methodist churches are quite liberal, which means they step outside the bounds of what is true and acceptable in biblical Christianity. Am I right, Neil? {Neil, I know you have your head on straight!}
I go to a non-denominational church but I do agree with the Southern Baptists on all issues, because they follow the Bible to the letter as far as what their beliefs are. I am in total agreement with them.
While tolerance and equality sound lovely, and they work very well when talking about the worth of people, they do not work so well when you are comparing belief systems. This is because Satan has designed false religions to be both deceptive and alluring. It is true false religions contain a lot of truth. “The better to deceive you with, my dear….”
Shall we give him and the demons a fair chance? Shall we embrace wrong beliefs? No.
We need to be aware of the existence of deception and of the spiritual warfare which is going on constantly all around us. Lives and eternal destinies are at stake, and Satan wants to take as many people with him as he can, into the Lake of Fire.
Revelation 20: says,
7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
So, while it sounds nice to embrace all beliefs and all people and respect it all, we need to be as concerned as Jesus was about the souls of men, and confront them with uncomfortable truths. It may take a lifetime to develop one’s faith, but it would be wisest to investigate it all now, with a mind determined to embrace the truth, whatever it is! =)
Hi Andrea – yes, I’m currently at a Methodist church where we have three orthodox pastors. The Texas Conference of the UMC is fairly sound Biblically. Go up North or to the West and there is no telling.
Lots of good things going on in Africa and such, though.
You are absolutely right that many Methodist churches are quite liberal. I would say aposate, even. Some of the things done by national leaders make me want to leave, but we have a lot of good things going on in our church. I addressed some of that here – http://4simpsons.wordpress.com/2007/05/03/youre-a-what-a-methodist/
“This is because Satan has designed false religions to be both deceptive and alluring.”
Yes. Satan masquerades as an angel of light.
I don’t believe in Satan or demons or angels except as metaphorical representations of a metaphysical world I don’t believe exists in that way.
But it seems to me that you worry too much both of you about all the people and things you cannot control, calling them ‘liberal’ and ‘evil’ and ‘false religions’ and such. I’ve been to pretty much all these denominations in the US South and many other religions here too, and I’ve seen good things, bad things and occasionally some downright heroism or outright evil things.
Our churches reflect us. That’s why Jesus said ‘the eye is the light of the body’. Some people are always looking for the bad in others, but there’s bad in all of us somewhere, and in all but a few damaged souls there is much good.
The spiritual warfare goes on within each of us. We demonstrate our faith and trust of God by our behaviour.
I was a little shocked by the harshness and racism and sexism when I first came to the Southern US but found it is only possible to demonstrate non-prejudice in my own life and witness quietly; anything else seemed to polarise people and bring about more unkindness.
Many people are fanatical about having their own worldview even though clearly there are many ways to view things and many ways to live.
I understand fully why Jesus hung out with the social outcasts and ’sinners’: it was so that he could love perfectly. I believe he thought if he showed us by example we would get it.
It’s not for another person’s benefit, it’s our own spiritual development depends on our ability to set ourselves aside: ‘if you love only them that love you, what good does it do you?’
The disciples ask Jesus if they should stop others from healing in his name, he says to let them be: ‘he that is not against us is for us’.
When we encourage others to seek God and use the spiritual power sometimes I think we are afraid to trust where it will go, but that’s what God does…
Religion has traditionally been used as superstitious control, but that’s not to me true faith, because there is an abundance of spiritual wealth for everyone, and nothing to fear.
‘The Texas Conference of the UMC is fairly sound Biblically. Go up North or to the West and there is no telling.’
I think a lot of the TX churches are out of step with the general consensus rather than the other way around, especially on the issue of homosexuality which started the discussion!
‘a mind determined to embrace the truth, whatever it is! =) ‘
yes, the open mind, what Christ called ‘repent’ or a changed heart. Love is key- when we have any level of acceptance, affection or respect for someone we open our minds and hearts to them even where we don’t accept or agree with them entirely.
And that’s the danger with extremism- we only give someone else the option of ‘do exactly what I want you to or be damned!’ and people don’t ever experience that as love or concern, if indeed it is.
Andrea, I am wondering who taught you to believe literally all this stuff about the release of Satan? It does not sound like a healthy church system. The book of the revelation should never be in the scriptures, it has been used to torment and frighten people for too long.
I first became convinced of Satan’s existence when, as a non-believer, I decided to test what is true by praying to Satan each night when I was 6 years old. i turned my little hands upside down and prayed to Satan the best I knew how. It felt wrong, but I did it anyway.
God responded by giving me nightmares. I have not had anything so scary happen to me since. Each night I would have dreams in which I could see nothing but darkness. I could hear voices but I could not understand what they were saying to me. The voices were scary, loud and deep. Unintelligible and frightening. The voices would get louder and louder until I woke up, terrified. I believe these were actual demons.
The Bible only served to deepen my belief in Satan and demons, and Revelation is my favorite book of the Bible. The entire Bible is true and we need not fear what Revelation declares unless, of course, we reject God, Jesus, and the Truth.
As a Bible-believing Christian, I hold the same view that Jesus did: Satan is real, and he is the father of lies, among many things – including the lie that he doesn’t exist.
I’m not worried about things I can’t control. I know who wins in the end. I just want to share the truth of Jesus with them.
Once again, you quote the parts of Jesus you like, but not always in context of what He really meant. The passage about the eyes is about money and greed (Matthew 6:19-24) and has nothing to do with whether you look for good and bad in others.
But if Satan isn’t real, what spiritual warfare are you referring to?
The whole UMC position is accurate with respect to the Bible and homosexual behavior. It is the theologically liberal / non-Bible believing areas that want to change it. You pick and choose what verses you like in the Bible, but the case for homosexual behavior being a sin is overwhelming:
100% of the verses addressing homosexual behavior denounce it as sin in the strongest possible terms.
100% of the verses referencing God’s ideal for marriage involve one man and one woman.
100% of the verses referencing parenting involve moms and dads with unique roles (or at least a set of male and female parents guiding the children).
0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to homosexual behavior in a positive or even benign way or even hint at the acceptability of homosexual unions.
But who says your views aren’t extreme? As best I can tell, you think everyone is going to Heaven (please correct me if I’m wrong, as I don’t want to mischaracterize your position). That is a rather extreme view. But what if you are wrong? People are on their way to an eternity in Hell and you are telling them they are doing fine.
On what basis do you decide what goes in the Bible and what doesn’t? If you think the Bible is wrong, why couldn’t it be that Revelation belongs there and “love your enemy” doesn’t?
Also, Satan is mentioned throughout the Bible and not just in Revelation. His mention there is actually good news: He loses, quickly and decisively.
‘God responded by giving me nightmares.’
our imaginations are very powerful, you gave yourself nightmares Andrea. I wonder what made you want to think about Satan or even where you’d heard of the concept at that young age. You poor thing, you must have been terrified.
What did your parents think of your experiment?
Demons were the way of describing mental illness and disability in unenlightened times, the concept has resulted in a great deal of persecution down the ages as superstitious people blamed anything bad which happened on someone ‘possessed by evil’. In one of God’s ironies, it is a person with such an attitude or who acts cruelly who is possessed by evil. But even today there are places where people are persecuted for being the wrong colour or some other attribute which is wrongly believed to attract the wrath of God…like albino children in some african countries, or the conservative response to AIDS in the US.
‘On what basis do you decide what goes in the Bible and what doesn’t? If you think the Bible is wrong, why couldn’t it be that Revelation belongs there and “love your enemy” doesn’t?’
good question Neil. I think personally for me it’s very very simple- if it ain’t good it ain’t God!
The Bible- collection of Jewish and Greek texts- was pulled together somewhat hastily in the 4 th century to support the end of the Roman emire, and has evolved since then to the interpretations and translations we have today. The Codex Sinaiticus is the oldest of these editions, dating to 330-350, but it’s not intact.
The Dead Sea Scrolls are the oldest Old Testament records, the youngest dates to AD 68.
The oldest written records we have of the New testament are some of the Nag Hammadi coptic texts dating to the 3 rd century which were recovered at the end of World War 2.
To look at the language constructs it’s easy to understand how people came up with their various interpretations for the New Testament. Jesus was hard to understand sometimes. The Greek concepts of their religion creep in too, with as you say Hades for the grave and ouranos ( Uranus ) for heaven.
Jesus’ language was aramaic, a kind of Egyptian.
By the time the Bible became widely available to Europeans Jesus was no longer represented as black, arabic, or Jewish though, in the Catholic faith. Once people began to have access to Bibles to study for themselves ( post 16 th century ) more protestant faiths emerged.
The Eastern Orthodox Church was of course active from the same time, but grew from a different culture, they just released a new Orthodox Study Bible translation, I haven’t read it yet, but I will!
It has only been by studying all these texts and attending Temple I finally understood Jesus’ teachings. It’s taken years.
I believe all is meant to inspire all these different groups and interpretations, and that is how it survived too, someone else would always come along and it touch them in a new way.
Where we get it wrong is when we go against each other and say ‘I’m right and you’re wrong’. It’s not like that. In fact, in demonstrating how to love anyway, we demonstrate the teachings.
Jesus said his parables were so people might not understand but hear the wisdom anyway. They are stories, metaphors and myths and examples.
If I think of his brown eyes looking my way at whatever it is I am about to do or say that tends to correct me, by this point. I’m mostly at peace with all people, sometimes I feel sad when I see how much waste goes into hating each other, but I rarely feel bad about anyone now, they are where they’re at developmentally I guess, and I can’t control that. I might influence it though, if I am kind- I loved when all the young people used to wear those bracelets ‘WWJD?’ !
Matthew 6 is beautiful, forgive people their trespasses. Interesting word that, it does feel like someone trespassed upon our soul when they go against us or cause us grief. It’s from the Greek paraptoma, to fall against someone, for Jews like Jesus there were codes of personal behaviour about who to touch in what circumstances.
Jesus’ healing and reaching out to people would have gone against The Law, another reason he was criticised; he said it didn’t matter. He could heal on the Sabbath etc if it was commanded from God.
Tracy,
I would suggest that before you go any further you should do some additional research on the historicity of the Biblical texts. I would suggest you take a look at any of a number of works that examine the evidence.
Dr’s Greg Boyd and Paul Eddy deal with this is their current book.
Lee Strobel covers this territory quite well
Paul Littles books (Know What/Why you believe) are excellent.
Francis Scheaffer- The God Who is There, He Is Not Silent
Nancy Pearcy- Total Truth
I’m sure that with a little effort you will be able to find others.
Hi Craig, thank you. Yes, there are a lot of these books, I think many of them get evangelism a bad name, frankly!
lee Strobel’s book went from being ‘The Case for Christ: A Journalist’s Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus’ to ‘The Case for the Real Jesus: A Journalist Investigates Current Attacks on the Identity of Christ’ a couple of reprints later!
The only thing I like about Greg Boyd and Paul Eddy book is the first three words of the title!
I think naturalism and scientific method- which the book trashes- actually have very little to do with the spiritual dimensions of the argument for apologetics.
People misunderstand Christ’s healing ministry, or the concept of ‘the healing touch’; partially because of all the charlatans down the ages who have made believe you can manipulate spiritual healing.
But just because people would like to believe the Bible was dropped intact from an angel does not make it so- the Bible has always been a tool for politics and personal power, and what gets left out is culturally significant.
We see this in the evolution of western christianity where by the renaissance Jesus is a blonde-haired blue-eyed european.
Tracy, please don’t take this too personally, but I find it very puzzling for you to make such a comment.
You have demonstrated out of context interpretations of Jesus’ teachings multiple times on this thread, and perhaps more importantly you just got through explaining why you find the New Testament unreliable. I think your reasoning is unfounded on the latter claim, but if you think it is true then why do you consider his teachings at all?
Is it fair to say that you think Jesus sort-of said some of the things attributed to him, but not all of them, and that you don’t think He was God in flesh? That’s the impression I have thus far. Christians don’t just listen to his sayings because we like them, but because of who He is and the authority his words carry.
Yes, God is good, but how can you be sure that what is in the Bible isn’t ultimately good? Is it bad for God to punish evil? What kind of a just judge would let such rebellion and harm go unpunished?
Re. trespassing – I think it is important to note that when we make God in our own image and put ourselves in his place that we are trespassing. The word has connotations of being a misdemeanor in our lives, but with respect to God it is the ultimate crime.
And we can see from them that the Bible has not been changed, just like with the NT. We know what the originals said.
Tracy,
I’m not sure from your answer if you have actually read the books or just the back covers. The Boyd/ Eddy book takes an in depth look at the areas you mentioned without getting past applying the normal tests scholars apply to texts of antiquity. Even if (in your opinion) the book trashes naturalism and the scientific method, the book certainly doesn’t stand or fall on that one point.
As far as Strobel, had you actually read the books you would know that each of his books is an attempt to interview experts in various fields to address different topics that caused him trouble as an atheist. The most recent book (Real Jesus) is not simply an update of the Case for Christ, but a new book aimed at more recent “attacks” on Jesus.
As to the rest of your comment, since it didn’t address anything I actually said, or believe, I think I’ll leave it alone.
‘it didn’t address anything I actually said’
I thought it did.
I find the Boyd Eddy book very difficult to read because of it’s pseudo-intellectual posturing. It is very convincing, I’ll agree, but I don’t like people who try to convince me, I can make up my own mind if they present their information. I think I have their book on evangelical theology, maybe I’ll take another look at that. I think I put it down because it was predictable…
I don’t think that what modern people are searching for in re-interpreting Jesus is at all an attack on Jesus- it’s in my case an attempt to find Jesus, to live a life that represent his values and path to God.
I don’t see that hating homosexuals or believing in a place of eternal torment are any part of his ministry. I am only interested in becoming a person closer to God and more capable of fulfilling God’s ‘purpose’ for me. And Jesus said that was love.
I can see why some of the loveless churches might experience that as attacks on their reliance on a worldview of suspicion and superstition, but my point was it’s a manipulation of people’s knee-jerk responses to say anyone who challenges the status quo is ‘attacking Jesus’, like in politics where anyone who disagrees gets called ‘unpatriotic’…
Is Jesus God? We are all part of God. According to John’s gospel Jesus said ‘I am in the father and the father is in me’. That’s the same for everyone- that is our experience of God, though I don’t think I could describe it any more clearly than that. I don’t hear voices or have anything more than a clarity of what i should do next after I pray.
Why would I take anything personally? Even if it was meant so I am certain of my relationship with God and my theological views; and certain that yours are different yet equally valid.
Jesus had a comment about being offended:
’skandalizo ean me skandalizo’
let no one give or take offence by me.
Life’s not as clear-cut as people want it to be, people aren’t good or evil, right or wrong, but a mix of these things.
As Jesus said ‘only God is good’.
I don’t think it’s a case of ‘win or lose’ either, why can’t it be a discussion not an argument, and concern not condemnation?
Tracy, the “hating homosexuals” line is a phony argument. No one here has said they hate them or that Jesus said to hate them. That is just an unjustified personal attack on your part. Sadly, that is the typical theologically liberal mantra: Homosexual behavior is no longer a sin, but that it is a sin to label it as a sin. You are trespassing on God’s territory and de-classifying sins.
Jesus is the one who made many claims about Hell, so it is perfectly logical to associate that as part of his ministry. Just because you don’t like the concept doesn’t mean it isn’t real.
Yes, and Jesus also said He was God.
How can that be? If Christians claim that Jesus is God, the original writings of the Bible are the word of God and true and authoritative, that Jesus is the only way of salvation, that Islam, Hinduism, etc. are false belief systems, that God said marriage is for one man and one woman and that homosexual behavior is a sin, etc., then how you you claim the opposite and still insist that both are views are equally valid?
Yes, He is God. No, we are not all part of God. That is a New Age / Hindu belief and not supported by Jesus or the Bible.
No I don’t think I agree with any of this, but thanks for sharing it Neil.
I think you must have agreed with some of what I said originally as your editing of the original article shows- and it certainly reads as a more thoughtful appraisal of the movie and not a mere attack on homosexuality which was what prompted me to examine the topic.
There’s a famous poem by Niemöller a WW2 theologian which translates:
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn’t a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out…
He bitterly regretted supporting the Nazi party, which seemed so positive and right at first, the people were so sure of themselves.
For me, I will always follow Jesus first, it’s my path, my religious calling and my culture, but I have learned a lot from all the other people’s interpretations of christianity also the other religions. If I were called to be a different faith I would be that faith. All faiths are part of God.
It’s all part of a whole creation.
‘How can that be?’
( that different views are equally valid )
because one person’s spiritual life and prayer and relationship with the divine is equal to another’s.
Just because we don’t understand it doesn’t mean we should do anything bad in response.
We can only control our own behaviour, and only ensure our own spiritual purity and development.
It is the open receptive mind which can be moved to God’s will, and the person who chooses to live in love and sharing and peace who follows Jesus’ teachings.
The christian religions have not behaved well on the whole through history because the people became obsessed with controlling others and manipulating the spiritual life.
Many of the liberal vs conservative arguments which pass around today do not reflect God or Christ or do any good for the people spreading or debating them.
They are like the national socialist party of WW2 Germany- it doesn’t matter how important it seems, or how fanatical people get, or whether some of the facts might be a valid argument- the actions they lead to are still unconscionable and ungodly.
Mutual respect means treating someone properly whether or not you agree with their views or values, agape love is loving anyway, and the goal of the christian life to my way of thinking. God IS love.
Jesus tried to show us all the things which stand in our way-
‘there’s not enough for everyone’, our fears and insecurities, our insistence to be right at any cost…
I think it’s time for me to bow out of the discussion now, I have nothing further to add, I shall certainly read and write more about all this in future, for now love and God Bless and thank you to everyone who has replied to me.
~Tracy
My little guy wants the computer. But I did want to answer some questionw Tracy asked of me:
What did my parents think of my experiment about praying to the devil?
They never knew about it. Each time the nightmares occured, I went into their bedroom and told them I had a really bad dream. “Think of flowers and of walking back to the lake,” my mom said. I never explained the details to her. She died six years ago and she accepted Christ the day before she died.
I ddi tell her about the time, in third grade, when she went to the grocery store and left me and my little brother and my best friend alone in the house. We prayed we would see a ghost. To this day, although we had not discussed this incident for about 25 years, each person present {me, Kent, and Kelly} recalls that we did see what appeared to be my mom walk into the back door. She was carrying a grocery sack with bread sticking out of it. She was wearing one of her red bandanas on her head. And when I said, “Hi, Mom,” and walked towards her, she disappeared.
Whether you believe it or not does not make it true or not. Truth remains truth no matter what you believe. Better to believe the Bible now, and better to believe in Satan and demons now, rather than be shocked and dismayed when it is too late.
I believe what we saw was a demon pretending to be my mom.
Tracy,
Those comments are as reprehensible as they are illogical.
You continue to put forth the fallacy that we can all be right in our spiritual views even when they directly contradict each other. Five year olds understand the law of non-contradiction better than that.
And your multiple comparisons of orthodox Christians to Nazis show that you don’t really think we are right. So how about being more intellectually honest and defending your views? I find it lazy for you to make claims and then run away from defending them.
Saying someone is like a Nazi for agreeing with the Bible is ridiculous.
You criticize people for being sure of themselves, when you are obviously quite fixed in your views.
You misquote Jesus and say we should never judge, all the while making judgments yourself.
You put yourself in the place of God and declassify homosexual behavior as a sin, then you say the real sin is to quote the Bible. Sure.
By your own words you don’t believe we have accurate records of what Jesus said. You then pick and choose only the quotes by him that you like. And then you consistently misinterpret those passages. And you don’t believe that He is God. You disagree with all important doctrines about him, so I hope that you are honest and do not present yourself to others as a follower of him.
I hope you keep reading. You are welcome to comment again, but only if you avoid ridiculous, passive-aggressive personal attacks that compare Bible-believing Christians to Nazis.
Andrea, thanks for sharing that. Praise God that you’ll see your mother again!
Messing with the occult is not a wise move. I’m not sure exactly how the “rules” work but there are lines you do not want cross or even get close to. One friend started to mess with it and got a clear message not to go farther.
Tracy,
After reading your response, I’m still not sure if actually read the Jesus myth book, or some other book be Dr’s Boyd and Eddy. It sounds like you either haven’t read them or can’t get past your preconecptions. I;m not sure why you would criticize two college professors for being “pseudo intellectual”. Again, had you read the book ,you would find that they take a scholarly look at the evidence for and against the “mythical Jesus” in well researched and footnoted book. There are actually two versions of the book, one aimed at a more “scholarly” audience and one aimed at a more “popular” audience. Again, they lay out the resulta of their research and one can agree or disagree with their conclusion. You are correct in saying that the research is certainly pursuasive.
Having followed your detour, I would like to get back to the point. You are making assertions that very few in the christian communioty would agree with. You dismiss those who have dealt with your objections without actually having read or rebutted them. Neil has addressed what can only be described as your random theology. So I’m not going to pile on. I’d be happy for a simple answer. Have you actually read the work you so casually dismiss or not?
Yes, I would have to agree with you. Delving into the occult is very dangerous and frightening. I was into it mostly in first and third grade. {I skipped the second grade in school.}
My aunt {8 years older than I} loved the Ouija Board and got me into playing it with her. “I’m not moving it {the ivory-colored hand-held game piece},” she would say.
When I saw “the ghost of my mom” she was not dead. Isn’t that weird? It could have only been a demon. Thanks for the happy words that I will see her again. I know that to be true. =) I was praying very earnestly for her salvation. I got to see her on the day she died, the day before, and 8 days before that. I knew she was very sick and not doing well when I left the family reuinion we had 8 days before her death. Then I flew back home, only to be called back by my aunt a few days later. I was so grateful to make it in time. I had a very bad pulled muscle in my back and needed a wheelchair that day. I got to the airport only 20 minutes before the flight was to take off, and I just prayed and asked an attendant there, “Please, can you help me? My mom is dying and I have 20 minutes before my plane leaves.” i had 3 kids in tow, and one was 11 months at the time. But God was good, and I made it!