"Saving Jesus" project = Who’s who of false teachers

False teacher Chuck “Jesus is not the only way” Currie is boo-hooing because listener complaints resulted in some progressive “Christian” ads being pulled.

Living the Questions is a respected resource of video curriculum for progressive Christian communities around the world. The Portland radio spots advertised a new series called “Saving Jesus” with the seemingly balanced introduction:

“Ever feel like Jesus has been kidnapped and taken hostage by the Christian Right? Or maybe even worse, simply cast aside as irrelevant by those on the secular left?”

via Why Are Portland Radio Stations Banning Progressive Christian Advertising?.

If you can watch the video at his link (the FDA has approved it as a substitute for Syrup of Ipecac) you’ll find fakes like Brian McLaren, John Dominic Crossan, Marcus Borg and others making up a god then pretending to worship it.

See the comments section where Chuck says that if you don’t vote for oxymoronic “same-sex marriage” — which, of course, is nowhere to be found in the Bible — then you have kidnapped Jesus and held him hostage.  What a self-parody.

It is almost comical watching people dismiss the virgin birth because that somehow takes Mary’s power away.  That’s the kind of thinking you get when they worship radical feminism instead of seeking the real God on his terms.

In fact, that’s the core problem with all these false teachers and seriously confused people: They refuse to seek God on his terms and instead they make up their own god.  They are either members of the “Jesus Seminar” or ideological siblings who think they get to literally vote on which verses of the Bible belong there.  But just because they find a few verses they agree with doesn’t make them Christians any more than finding a few verses they like in the Quran makes them Muslims.

I respect the religious freedom of these fake Christians to make and publish all the ads they like, and I respect the freedom of the radio stations to pull them if their customers are offended by such nonsense.

I just wish that Chuck Currie et al weren’t so dishonest and would just make up a new name for their religion.  They are the ones who “stole” the name of Jesus.  The real Christians accept the Jesus of the Bible whether we like all the verses or not.

Jesus doesn’t need to be saved, we do.  Jesus doesn’t need to be saved, He does save.  And these fakes will never tell you that.

50 thoughts on “"Saving Jesus" project = Who’s who of false teachers

  1. making up a god then pretending to worship it.

    Now thats what this is really all about. Create a god out of your own imagination and then fall down and worship. Idol worshippers really are stupid if you ask me. But Currie and his “progressive” religious ideology is about as bright as Elmer Fudd.

    Fake christians serving a fake designer god.

  2. Jesus does save. More importly He shows us how to live our life. We are to die to self daily. Everyday. Sometimes we have to practice that moment by moment. If there is hatred in your heart, you are distant and cannot hear His directions for your part in His body. His sheep hear His voice. We all need to function as a whole. Unity of Spirit. Unity in purpose.

    If your life doesn’t follow His example, you don’t know Him. Refress yourself in His character and read the gospels. He came and set all things anew. Hebrews 8:13. New rules. A golden one actually. His kingdom IS come. His bride IS preparing for the wedding. Wake up church! Have you seen the news lately? We are in Revelations 6:6, if you have ears to hear.

    • You know poolman, if I didn’t realize that you are in favor of a woman’s right to kill her own child, then this exhortation might carry some weight.

      As it stands, I exhort you to follow your own advice.

      • Dan, I cannot judge you. You cannot judge me. Jesus said if you murder in your heart, you have committed the sin of murder. I goes the same with adultery and on down the line.

        Holy Spirit just directed me to read James. It is a short book. Anyone with ears to here, please read what the Lord has to say through the brother of the Lord. Please don’t be hearers only…

      • Dan, I cannot judge you.

        You’ve been making judgments in nearly every comment. Spare us the faux churchy talk.

      • Dan points out that as fellow believers we ARE to judge one another. I was really referring more to judging your intentions. I don’t walk in your shoes. I don’t know the condition of your heart, only God does. All I can see is the fruit.

        I meant only to point out things inconsistent with the example set by Jesus. If you are outside the body of Christ, I am not judging you. Judging a policy or action as NOT lining up with the teachings of Jesus should not condemn you unless you hold to that as truth. Show me where Jesus’s enemies lie, and I will show you where evil is harbored. He said to love your enemies. He was the epitomy of love. Love covers a multitude of sins. His compassion was for the downtrodden. He had little regard for the wealthy and the organized religious leaders. You, by your very post are judging others. I am not familiar with them or their ministries. Teachers have to hold to a much higher standard.

      • Dan points out that as fellow believers we ARE to judge one another. I was really referring more to judging your intentions.. . . .

        I meant only to point out things inconsistent with the example set by Jesus.

        Sure. Or more likely, you were judging repeatedly while telling us not to judge. You are the hypocrite here. Work on that.

      • 1 Cor 5:12-13
        12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”
        NIV

      • Thank you, Dan. Amen to that. If you are considered a part of the church, I am trying to point you to Jesus. He alone is the example. We are to be here doing His work. Brush up on what that is. If you don’t line up, accept it as judgement. If you do, I pray His blessings on ALL of your efforts. If there is wickedness in your life or heart, please turn from it. Good fruit is the litmus test.

      • Thank you, poolman. Amen to that. If you are considered a part of the church, I am trying to point you to Jesus. He alone is the example. We are to be here doing His work. Brush up on what that is. If you don’t line up, accept it as judgement. If you do, I pray His blessings on ALL of your efforts. If there is wickedness in your life or heart, please turn from it. Good fruit is the litmus test.

        What does it say about an argument when all I have to do is cut, paste, change names to make a counter argument?

      • Good strategy, Dan. I find that very effective in exposing meaningless comments. As you noted, if you can say the same thing in reverse then that’s a tipoff that the comment was empty.

      • I might also point out that, even for those outside the church, we can always judge behavior. If that was not the case, then we could have no laws against crime. So we can indeed always judge behavior.

  3. “But just because they find a few verses they agree with ”

    Neil, this might be more accurate if stated: “But just because they find a few verses that agree with them” since there “self” really is at the center of their worship.

  4. ” just wish that Chuck Currie et al weren’t so dishonest and would just make up a new name for their religion.”

    Amen. But they actually unwittingly I believe prove to the world that Jesus was exactly who he said he was. In the same way blood sucking parasites don’t attach themselves to dead bodies, they don’t attach themselves to dead and powerless religions.

    Here’s my thing though. When I was an atheist, I found those of this ilk the scummiest of scum for whom I reserved the utmost contempt. I simply saw them for who they were, arrogant self appointed elitists trying to impose their hair-brained ideas on society by asserting that God himself was all for it. They were at their core blatant left-wing party loyalist hacks wearing the Emperor’s new clothes leading a bunch of like minded commies around thinking they were getting away with something. Their steady drum-beat of accusations of right-wingedness and their fixation on party politics reveals their hack roots. But even as a non-believer atheist I saw through it, and I have to believe that others do to. It was so obvious that they were not the real thing.

    I remember that I encountered only a few Christians for whom I held–almost against my will–a morbid inner respect. My reaction was different to them; mixed anger and fear, not contempt. I didn’t know it then but I now realize that I knew the truth but wanted to suppress it; as in Rom 1:18, [I knew that I] suppressed the truth by my wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to [me], because God has made it plain to [me]. True Christians shined lights into my life that I preferred not to be shinned and it caused me fear and anger at God which I in turn hurled at his followers. I responded to them by pointing out all the horrors in the world as if doing so would provide a salve for my condemned heart. Such is not a rare thing in blog forums such as this.

    My salvation, as it turns out, was not a nudge over the wall that separated me from God, as they would have had me believe, or due to the following of enslaving political doctrines, or earth worship, or whatever in vogue man centered activity that this constantly morphing stranger Jesus symbolizes, it was by the blood of the true Lamb, and it was indeed so great a salvation. And I can’t help but believe that almost all, if not all, in the depths of their hearts, know and see the same truth when they are confronted with it.

    I now find my own words from those days challenging me to live a life today in this world that will by God’s grace have the same impact on those whose paths I cross.

    • Dan, I really hope you’ll turn that comment into a post on your blog (don’t make me do it for you!). That is a great insight. Even as a non-believer I knew the prosperity gospel preachers were fakes, but I didn’t realize how theological Liberals were as thoroughly fake but in a different way.

      I love it when atheists can see how theological Libs teach the opposite of the Bible. You don’t need the Holy Spirit to see that the Bible teaches that Jesus is the only way, etc.

    • God is not right or left. There are false teachers in both camps. Be careful who you may paint as an enemy because of which camp they come from. God IS spirit. We worship Him in spirit and in truth. He is greater than ANY book, even the Bible. He is greater than any nation or people. You cannot know another’s heart. We are to love all. That includes Jews and Muslims. That is the sum of the law. Anyone who does not love is not of God. Don’t chance blaspeming Holy Spirit. We know not the direction of the wind. May His peace be with you, I pray.

      • Thanks for the bumper sticker slogans. I do love Jews and Muslims, which is why I seek to share the Gospel with them (unlike the cowardly fakes on the Left who say Jews and Muslims don’t need Jesus).

  5. Lol! poolman’s comment summed up:

    Bumper sticker slogans, Judge Dan for choosing enemies incorrectly, good sounding religious talk, Dan doesn’t love everybody and he hates Jews and Muslims, good sounding religious talk,

    Hint Poolman on future arguments:

    Red herring– This means exactly what you think it means: introducing irrelevant facts or arguments to distract from the question at hand.

    If you look to Neil’s side bar you’ll find some helpful links that will assist you in making logical consistent arguments… if that sort of thing matters to you.

    As I said earlier, and you don’t deny, you are FOR the legalized murder of human beings. Where’s the love in that? Jesus said we will know them by their fruit. I call that bad fruit. Conclusion: do not listen to what you preach.

    It is going to take a substantial change of heart for you to change your position on the horror of abortion. I pray that God will exact that change and you repent.

    Now, you can proceed with your bumper sticker slogans and judgments and red herrings and good sounding religions talk and stuff. Have fun!

    • I hate abortion and use to protest it in Texas in the 80’s. It only caused hate and division and did not serve to change minds. I have always claimed it kills a human life. Whether it is murder or not, I cannot say, as murder implies intent. Neil is the one that calls me pro-abort. I have always been pro-life. I even detest war and capital punishment.

      • Preaching Christ causes “hate and divisions,” so should we stop preaching Christ?

        God ordained capital punishment long before the law of Moses, i.e., when Noah stepped off the ark as representative for the whole human race. If you detest capital punishment, then you detest what God has decreed.

      • Preaching repentance and reconciliation to God through Jesus DOES cause division. True. It divides families and friends. Not all will accept or believe. Not all are going to be saved. If they don’t accept the message of repentance, we are to shake the dust off of our feet and move on.

        These other divisions you bring up are wedge issues WITHIN the church. Dividing the body of believers. There are numerous warnings in the letters regarding these things. Paul talked extensively regarding this. Circumcision is one example. If you follow one item of the law, you essentially negate the sacrifice of Christ.

      • Ignoring for a minute the obvious fact that there is such a thing as murder without explicit intent…even basing the criteria on your own assertion that “murder implies intent,” how can you not say abortion is murder?

        Nobody is speaking against accidental termination or miscarriage. People who get abortions intend to end the life of their unborn child.

        Reasoning and intent are two different things. Regardless off whether or not their rationale is malicious, they are still purposefully ending a human life (as you’ve acknowledged yourself). This is going into a clinic with the express intent to end the life inside of you.

        I just don’t see how it logically adds up that you are pro-life/against abortion, but not against legalized abortion? Yes, yes…I know you wish to see it reduced, but that seems like a hollow sentiment when you are apparently for it being legal (which does nothing for your goal of reducing the numbers…imagine that;))

        FYI, your rationale for why you stopped fighting against abortion runs counter to the Bible (and logic, if we are to believe your self-proclaimed view of abortion). We are supposed to be leading the way. There is going to be struggle. There are going to be fights. We are going to face opposition. The very name of Jesus offends…etc, etc.

        Adhering to the word of God isn’t preaching hate or division…it’s simply adhering to the word of God. The division and hate comes from the rebellion of those who wish to put themselves, their wants, their lives, before God’s word. Christians shouldn’t turn tail and run or, worse yet, distort the truth simply because some people find God’s demands offensive.

        Being peaceful is biblical to be sure, but you turn the other cheek when someone offends you…not when they offend God.

        What you describe doesn’t sound peaceful or “progressive.” It sounds, quite frankly, cowardly. At what point did you determine it’s okay to run from God’s word in an effort to “prevent hate and division” or some type of argument? Abortion isn’t worth the fight, apparently. What else is okay to ignore? Gay marriage? Adultery? Murder of a fully born person (since we’ve established that murder of the unborn isn’t where the line is drawn)?

        When you start drawing the lines yourself, they get awfully murky. Fortunately, God is clear on what he wants. He already drew the lines. No amount of rationalizing makes that change. Your lack of will to speak against it doesn’t make it less of a sin in God’s eyes. It might work for you, but then you should probably reevaluate who’s will your really following.

        If you are truly against abortion and are “pro life” then why do you spend so much time rationalizing for the pro-choice side of things? I’m not telling you to go back to protesting or to even speak out against it…I just don’t see how your “yeah, but…” defenses of false doctrine by false teachers does anything to serve God or even your own self-proclaimed desire to “reduce abortion.”

        I honestly pray you spend some real, dedicated time praying about the “decision” (honestly though, is dancing in the middle of an issue with no middle really a decision?) you’ve made in regards to abortion with an open heart. Not because anyone here says so, but just for your own benefit.

        God Bless.

      • While I can see your POV, I still find NO place in the NT giving believers authority to govern or write legislation that others, believers and not, are to be subject to. The law was summed up in only TWO commands. Love God with all your being, love your neighbor as yourself. I have yet to see these followed by the church. Is protesting on the street or in front of anyone’s home or clinic practicing love? If so, how? If you have revelation beyond that, feel free to enlighten me.

      • So the Civil Rights movement was unloving? Many lives have been saved by protestors. Seems loving to me. Many have been spared the trauma of guilt over abortions. That is loving as well.

        I don’t do protests, but I respect those who do.

        Your contention that we can’t advance laws to protect human beings because you can’t find that in the NT is ridiculous. Using that logic, you couldn’t vote against stealing and killing outside the womb. You keep trying to defend the indefensible and it leads you to all sorts of bad logic.

      • There is a time for protesting. There is a time for all things, as we read in Ecclesiastes chapter 3. The civil rights movement indeed was filled with great spiritual influence predicated with love. I don’t deny that many protesting abortion do so out of love. Love should motivate everything we do. I certainly felt it was His will when my wife and I were involved in those protests. However, the results seemed to stir up more hatred and push people away from God.

        I think the anti-abortion movement has promoted overall, more violence and division than good. Abortion is not the greatest sin of our age, like many claim it to be. I believe apostasy is.

      • ” I think the anti-abortion movement has promoted overall, more violence and division than good”

        That is pathetic. Truly pathetic. If you were 1% consistent you’d rewind just a little more and realize that the pro-legalized abortion movement has promoted overall, more violence and division than good. (As Dan note, you really should think about how your comments will play when turned around. If they can be used both directions, they are typically pointless.)

      • Well, a couple things:

        1. Your definition of “Jesus’ Law” seems to be flawed in that you apparently believe that their is no obedience to God required. It’s a myth that Jesus simply only preached love. He preached submission and obedience. He preached faithfulness.

        “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven” [Matt. 5:17-19, NAS].

        In other words, the notion that God’s law is somehow null because of Jesus is a fallacy. This isn’t the same as laws of circumcision or sacrificial ceremony (i.e. religious laws), as Jesus DID replace those by BEING the sacrifice.

        Notice too, that we are also told (by Jesus himself) to not only keep them but TEACH them. You can’t teach by being on the sidelines, or worse, countering the biblically rooted teachings of other Christians with unbiblical teachings. There is nowhere in the bible where Jesus says “stop spreading my message if it gets too contentious” (in fact, he actually says the opposite).

        2. Love and the church. I would tend to agree with you that, in too many cases, there is less love involved in the motives of SOME churches than there is condemnation.

        However, the error in your logic is the belief that condemning sin is somehow unloving. In fact, sharing the gospel and teaching people what God wants and expects is really about as loving an act as you can ask for.

        For example, if you have a friend with a drug addiction, is it more loving to support him financially and emotionally while ignoring his habit or is it more loving to support him emotionally but urge him into rehabilitation so he can kick the habit?

        One approach offers a temporary comfort and is obviously less tasking for the “lover.” The other requires patience, dedication, and yes, sometimes a bit of conflict, but benefits BOTH parties so much more in the long haul.

        So, yes, as Neil also showed with the Civil Rights movement, protesting can certainly be an act of love (and lets not pretend that peaceful, but vigilant protesting is the same as those tossing fake fetuses or assaulting people). Love and agreement don’t necessarily go hand-in-hand…that’s not a revelation on my part, just common sense.

        I would also point out that your logic for us “imposing laws” on believes and non-believers alike can be twisted in any direction.

        There are laws against Murder and I doubt you take issue with that. If you really believe that abortion is killing a human life (as you’ve claimed you do), then I don’t see why you oppose such an “infringement” on non-Christians. This isn’t simply us wanting to impose the Bible on the world (though I could certainly think of worse things;)), but a move towards protecting life in that same vein.

        As for subjecting people to things, If the government is allowed to further abortion “rights” by allowing it to be a covered medical expense under any government healthcare system, then WE are being made subject to those rules. All laws infringe on something…One imposition protects life while the other destroys it. I would think the choice should be clear.

        Also, for the record, I explicitly mentioned that I am not urging you to protest but simply asking you why you seem to counter those who do. By your logic, you are being unloving simply because you are still countering a side, but your actually just doing it from the other perspective.

      • PJ, thanks for your reasoned response. If we follow the two greatest commandments Jesus gave we fully honor God and all other humans. That is how we fulfill the entire law. Love would not murder or harbor hate. No greater love could any man have than to lay down his own life for his fellow man. God knows the heart. If we have hate or curse in our heart, He claims it is the SAME as doing it. Covet, adultery, cheat, curse – it is all the same. Intent IS what important.

        As for the law being obsolete, it is all over the NT. Try Hebrews 8:13, Romans 3:21, Galatians chapter 3 is good, especially verse 10.

        I was led to read James yesterday. If you can read that whole (small) book and see your own life reflected in those very words without any conviction of guilt, I would say you are on the right path.

        Teachers are held to a higher standard. Not all are given the gift of teaching. Refer to 1 Corinthians 12:29, among other scriptures.

      • We are clearly starting to go in circles on this but, to respond:

        You went back to intent, but you are defining it poorly. You can kill without hate and it is still killing. You can sin without hate…it is still sinning. Your focus seems to be on the intent for the consequent, when it is irrelevant if the antecedent was intended.

        This is still apart from the point on abortion though, for example, as intent is obvious from start to finish. Again, the rationale behind the intent might not be malicious, but that is a separate matter (and also irrelevant as the intent is STILL there, and the action and results are the same).

        To your personal allusions to “Love is the answer,” I think I see where you’re trying to go, but it sounds more akin to mysticism than God’s Word. Certainly love is important, but Christ’s love for us and his resulting sacrifice is the key there. This is a sidetrack from our conversation though, as the debate didn’t center on love/hate but life/death.

        I will say this though…in regards to love, I hold no hate for anyone, but I do have “righteous anger” (and admittedly, not-so-righteous frustration) towards the actions of plenty.

        It is true that some may have a hard time distinguishing that for themselves, but I’d imagine, in that same vein, some mistakenly fail to make such distinctions when receiving criticism as well (i.e. pro-abortionists or homosexuals crying “hate” or accusing those opposed of various “isms” when their views are countered).

        In other words (and to relate it to the point) I (and not just me…but many who frequent this site, in fact) can distinguish between what I find to be an offensive, sinful act and the individual committing it.

        This is why I previously stated that protest/rebuke can very much be an act of love and the responsibility of the resulting anger or division doesn’t necessarily fall at the feet of the one protesting. It often rests with the recipient of rebuke or supporters of such actions that lead to it (i.e rebellion against God, etc).

        As for the verses you referenced, they are speaking to my point. Jesus didn’t make law obsolete, he made men’s attempts to please God within that framework obsolete by becoming the embodiment of the law.

        Hebrews 8:13-the verses leading up to it are key…it’s essentially talking about sacrifices and offerings not being necessary since Jesus fulfills the sacrifice.

        Romans 3:21-again, reading the verses leading up to it paints a clearer picture. It is speaking to the fact that we obtain righteousness apart from mere obedience of the law, because we are unable to be righteous in God’s eyes without Jesus’ sacrifice.

        It doesn’t say the law is obsolete, it’s simply further confirming that we don’t meet God’s standard on our own.

        It’s funny you mention Galatians, because some verses immediately sprung to mind when thinking of part of your argument and the overarching point Neil was making about false teachers:

        “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

        But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.

        As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

        For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ” Galatians 1:6-10

        I thought this fitting to the crux of the topic at hand;)

        Anyway, as for the context in which you mention it-again, you seem to be either missing the point or swaying it to your reasoning. We agree 100% that “the righteous shall live by faith.” but again, that is simply speaking to the fact that we CANNOT POSSIBLY live up to God’s standards. We need Jesus, simply because we are unworthy and sinful.

        However, (again) none of this says that we are simply to ignore the law or that it no longer exists. Is it necessary to salvation? No (or, maybe technically I could say yes…since Jesus is the embodiment of it) However, true salvation (should) involve some revelation of your unworthiness by God’s standards and then repentance of your sins (repentance being a necessary step along with acceptance, of course).

        To allude back to Romans briefly..essentially, it is not by God’s law that we are justified, but instead are given insight into our sin. This is a big part of what makes the law still relevant.

        Again, Jesus abolishes the need (an impossible one at that) to live up to all of God’s standards. We are still supposed to be repentant and obedient as God’s word gives us no choice (and therefore no excuse) but to be aware of his expectations.

        As for teachers being held to a higher standard, that’s tracking away from our discussion, but you are focusing on a conflict of terminology and not relevance. We are all to spread the Gospel. My use of the word ‘teachers’ in that regard and Corinthians usage are separate points.

        We are all given the gift of salvation, and therefore the gift of testimony. We are all given the Word of God, including the path to salvation and the commandment to share it.

        The reference to Matt 5:19 was simply a reminder of that. We all have something to “teach” in that regard. You do not share the Gospel by going silent when someone challenges or rejects it (to remind you of my previous point and why the verse was referenced in the first place).

        I’m glad you recently read James. It is a good reminder of how we should be more than words and live our faith through our actions.

        “In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, ‘You have faith; I have deeds.’ Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.” James 2:17-18

        Note part of the overall message of James though. Those actions still need to line up with with Scripture and that while we cannot keep the whole of God’s law, when we turn to Jesus, we should have some recognizable “proof” of our turn away from sin and attempts towards righteousness.

      • I appreciate the response and certainly don’t want to go in circles.

        the debate didn’t center on love/hate but life/death.

        To the life/death issue…
        This life we live is clearly about relationships. Our relationship with God. Our relationship with others that inhabit the planet. The NT is entirely about that. It hinges completely around a spiritual rebirth and “life” described therein most often means our spiritual condition. One has to be reborn in the spirit. That reestablishes the God/man relationship we lost when Adam sinned. That is the whole reason Jesus came in the flesh. That is what His kingdom is all about. We read in 1st Corinthians 5:45

        So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

        John 1:4 relates, “In him was life, and that life was the light of men.” John 6:63 tells us more…

        The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

        The flesh is synonymous with the physical/carnal aspects of our existence. You could still have a beating heart and be among the dead according to scripture. Luke 17:33 states:

        Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.

        And 2nd Corinthians 4:12 tells us, “So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.”
        Romans 8:6 says, “The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace”
        Luke 21:19 tells us, “By standing firm you will gain life”
        2 Corinthians 3:16 tells us the new covenant is a spiritual relationship. “He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant–not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”
        Afterall, “If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.” 1 Corinthians 15:19
        So if the debate is one of life and death, the life that is important is that of the spirit. Everything else is secondary. We are to die to self daily and live for Christ. His yoke is easy, His burden is light. Don’t complicate it and attach requirements that clearly no longer apply.

        Look at this analogy. When computers were first developed, it took rooms and rooms of space to hold the same information you can now hold in one hand. It is similar with Christ. “On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Matthew 22:40)

      • If it’s not murder then why do you hate it?

        Intent? that’s nonsense.

        For you to be pro-life the word must be redefined.

        Muder implies intent but the mom who intentionally has her child dissmembered didn’t intentionally do it? More nonesense.

        I say again:

        war and capital punnishment? Good for you. It’s a red herring in this thread. I mentioned that earlier. You should seriously check it out.

        I say again:

        You don’t deny, you are FOR the legalized murder of human beings. Where’s the love in that? Jesus said we will know them by their fruit. I call that bad fruit. Conclusion: do not listen to what you preach.”

  6. Do you people on this board believe the church today has the same abilities as Jesus performed when he walked the earth, ie: giving sight to the blind, casting out demons, healing sickness and disease, and raising the dead?

    • poolman,
      In response to this question, which has nothing to do with the post (why don’t you stick to the topic at hand?), it is not normative for the church to do these things. However, if God chooses to provide these particular signs for a particular purpose, then God will do so. And it wasn’t the whole church that did these things to begin with – it was the apostles, and these were signs of the apostles to authenticate their positionl

      • Thank you for your answer, Dan. I must have misinterpreted some of your commentary.

        This has EVERYTHING to do with Jesus. These signs and wonders ARE to follow ALL of those who follow Jesus. Mark 16: 17 and 18 confirms this. There is SO MUCH confirmation in NT of this. That’s WHY Holy Spirit was sent. The kingdom of God IS at hand. This is the message of the NT. The law is null and void. The new covenant supercedes the old.

      • Poolman,

        With all due respect, the Holy Spirit was sent to “convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment” (John 16:8). The cessation of the sign gifts at the end of the Apostolic age is an historical fact attested to by the Early Church Fathers, as well as Paul himself in 1 Cor. 11-14. The “signs and wonders” movement has completely missed the point of why those miracles occured, a subject to which Paul devoted a couple of chapters. Nowhere does Scripture indicate that tongues, predictive prophecy and healing by human agency would be normative for all believers of all time…and in fact, indictaes the opposite (1 Cor. 13:8; 2 Tim. 4:20).

        BTW Jay Adams has an excellent, but brief book on that subject: “Signs and Wonders in the Last Days”.

      • Marie, you are gravely mistaken. Yes, Holy Spirit convicts our hearts. No doubt. Holy Spirit also gave Jesus power here on earth. I just read the whole of what you have referenced (1st Corinthians chapters 11-14) and it frankly states the very opposite of what you are claiming. Read chapter 12 verses 1 through 11. It explains ALL the gifts of the Spirit.

        2 Timothy 4:20 ? I don’t know what you’re seeing there. If your point is someone is sick, you clearly don’t understand. Not all healing is guaranteed and is only designed to give God glory. There are no promises anywhere that claim believers will not suffer the same things in this world as non believers. I have witnessed plenty of healings, physical and spiritual.

        1st Corinthians 13:8 shows how love is everlasting and supercedes ALL other gifts. Love has no end.

        John 14: 11-18 states: Just believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or at least believe because of what you have seen me do. “The truth is, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father. You can ask for anything in my name, and I will do it, because the work of the Son brings glory to the Father. Yes, ask anything in my name, and I will do it! “If you love me, obey my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, who will never leave you. He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world at large cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you do, because he lives with you now and later will be in you. No, I will not abandon you as orphans — I will come to you.

        Acts chapter 1 verse 5 through 8 states: John baptized with water, but in just a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” When the apostles were with Jesus, they kept asking him, “Lord, are you going to free Israel now and restore our kingdom?” “The Father sets those dates,” he replied, “and they are not for you to know. But when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, you will receive power and will tell people about me everywhere — in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

        Mark chapter 16 verses 15 through 18 states: And then he told them, “Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone, everywhere. Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned. These signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak new languages. They will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won’t hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick and heal them.”

        I will check out the Jay Adams book and see if it sheds any light. Remember, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.” Heb 13:8 We are His body, if we are called by His name. He did not leave us powerless.

      • poolman, I hate to tell you this, but Mark 16:9-20 is not found in the earliest manuscripts, or even early witnesses (early church fathers) and is most likely an addition by a later scribe. Don’t base a theology on a disputed passage.

      • “…The evidence against Mark 16:9-20 mostly rests on the Vatican and Sinaitic Manuscripts.”

        …In favor of Mark 16:9-20 there are a host of witnesses: the Alexandrian Manuscript, the Ephraem Manuscript, Codex Bezae, other early uncials, all late uncials and cursives, five old Latin authorities plus the Vulgate, one Old Syriac manuscript, the Syriac Peshitta version , and many other versions. Besides, there is a plain statement from Irenaeus (early Christian writer) which clearly shows the existence of Mark 16:9-20 in the second century and the belief that Mark was its author. (pg 32) … the Vatican Manuscript does not include Mark 16:9-20. For some strange reason, however, its scribe left at this point more than a column of space blank in his manuscript. This seems to indicate that he knew of the existence of these questioned verses, but was undecided as to whether he should include them or not.”

        “How We Got The Bible”, by Neil R. Lightfoot

        I’m sorry, I don’t find the Vatican credible or a beacon of light. Since the inception of Catholicism, they have greatly shackled the faith, deceiving the flock. I was raised Catholic and an altar boy. I wasn’t “saved” until I received spiritual rebirth at the age of 22.

      • Lightfoot won’t tell me anything I don’t already know. I have read both sides of the KJV issue in depth, as well as the history of English translations, etc. I have about 30 books on the subjects of translations, textual criticism, etc. While there is a lot going for the TR, there are also many problems with it. Whether that passage is there or not is really irrelevant because the signs and wonders did indeed cease. I’ve yet to see anyone who claims that passage is for today drink poison or play with vipers!

  7. Nope; I am most definitely not “gravely mistaken”. ;) Rather than get into a lengthy debate about cessationism (of which, I assure you, I am quite capable), I would point you to a handful of sources which have thoroughly proven what I stated above in far more detail:

    http://andycontramundum.blogspot.com/2010/11/cessationist-exegesis-of-1-corinthians.html

    http://www.gotquestions.org/cessationism.html

    http://andycontramundum.blogspot.com/2010/08/mysticism-is-not-christian-spirituality.html

    http://www.biblebb.com/files/mac/sg1856.htm

    http://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/A231_Prophecy-and-the-Closed-Canon-Part-1

    http://www.biblebb.com/files/combating_charismatic_theology.htm

    http://www.biblebb.com/files/tongues.htm

    No one is disputing the infinite power or unchanging nature of Christ, on earth or elsewhere, so that is a straw man argument. Mark 16:15-18 is describing the transitional period when the Church was being established, until roughly 70 AD when the temple was destroyed. Nearly all commentators agree on this (btw, Adams spends an entire chapter exegeting this passage in the book I cited). The canon of Scripture was closed at the end of the first century. The sign gifts had ceased during Paul’s lifetime (note they are not mentioned at all in the later Epistles).

    In addition to the links above, see also Warfield’s “Counterfeit Miracles”, Macarthur’s “Charismatic Chaos”, and Hanegraaf’s “Counterfeit Revival”. Oh, also Dave Hunt’s “The Seduction of Christianity”.

    I’ve written tens of thousands of words on this subject over the past 5 years, but have neither the time nor the desire to get into it right now. Others have written more thoroughly and articulately than I have on the biblical support for cessationism (which in no way negates the immutability of God) – from the second century (Justin Martyr, etc.) until the present time.

  8. Question: “Are the miraculous gifts of the Spirit for today?”

    Answer: First, it is important to recognize that this is not a question of whether God still performs miracles today. It would be foolish and unbiblical to claim God does not heal people, speak to people, and perform miraculous signs and wonders today. The question is whether the miraculous gifts of the Spirit, described primarily in 1 Corinthians 12–14, are still active in the church today. This is also not a question of can the Holy Spirit give someone a miraculous gift. The question is whether the Holy Spirit still dispenses the miraculous gifts today. Above all else, we entirely recognize that the Holy Spirit is free to dispense gifts according to His will (1 Corinthians 12:7-11).

    In the book of Acts and the Epistles, the vast majority of miracles are performed by the apostles and their close associates. Paul gives us the reason why: “The things that mark an apostle—signs, wonders and miracles—were done among you with great perseverance” (2 Corinthians 12:12). If every believer in Christ was equipped with the ability to perform signs, wonders, and miracles, then signs, wonders, and miracles could in no way be the identifying marks of an apostle. Acts 2:22 tells us that Jesus was “accredited” by “miracles, wonders, and signs.” Similarly, the apostles were “marked” as genuine messengers from God by the miracles they performed. Acts 14:3 describes the gospel message being “confirmed” by the miracles Paul and Barnabas performed.

    Chapters 12–14 of 1 Corinthians deal primarily with the subject of the gifts of the Spirit. It seems from that text “ordinary” Christians were sometimes given miraculous gifts (12:8-10, 28-30). We are not told how commonplace this was. From what we learned above, that the apostles were “marked” by signs and wonders, it would seem that miraculous gifts being given to “ordinary” Christians was the exception, not the rule. Beside the apostles and their close associates, the New Testament nowhere specifically describes individuals exercising the miraculous gifts of the Spirit.

    It is also important to realize that the early church did not have the completed Bible, as we do today (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Therefore, the gifts of prophecy, knowledge, wisdom, etc. were necessary in order for the early Christians to know what God would have them do. The gift of prophecy enabled believers to communicate new truth and revelation from God. Now that God’s revelation is complete in the Bible, the “revelatory” gifts are no longer needed, at least not in the same capacity as they were in the New Testament.

    God miraculously heals people every day. God still speaks to us today, whether in an audible voice, in our minds, or through impressions and feelings. God still does amazing miracles, signs, and wonders and sometimes performs those miracles through a Christian. However, these things are not necessarily the miraculous gifts of the Spirit. The primary purpose of the miraculous gifts was to prove that the gospel was true and that the apostles were truly God’s messengers. The Bible does not say outright that the miraculous gifts have ceased, but it does lay the foundation for why they might no longer occur to the same extent as they did as recorded in the New Testament.

  9. I have witnessed healing and have been used of God to heal others. I have been filled with the Spirit and pray often in tongues. I don’t see justification in scripture where the power of God is supposed to diminish as time progresses. Jesus Himself said we would do greater things than He did after He left the planet. From 2nd Timothy we read how many of the church in the last days are described as “having a form of godliness but denying its power.

    James chapter 5 verses 13 through 20 states: Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. Elijah was a man just like us. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops. My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

    We are to have His word written in our hearts, It doesn’t matter that the Bible of today did not exist when the disciples of the 1st century walked the earth. The scriptures they knew and read then were more numerous than the 66 books our cannon contains. Many manuscripts were not included and many were even burned at the instruction of Constantine. Walk by faith, not by sight. Clearly Paul describing the gifts of the Spirit in Corinthians was for all of us. The Word clearly says to be doers and not merely hearers of the Word.

    Faith without works is dead. God is Spirit, we are to worship Him in Spirit and in truth. It has nothing to do with book knowledge and everything to do with a child-like faith.

    Your last paragraph claims God still does these things. I claim none of these can be done aside from the Holy Spirit. Even Jesus was a mere mortal while He walked the earth. It was only through the Holy Spirit that He was able to do anything supernatural. And that only as the Father showed Him.

So, what do you think?

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